 Skillset for Military Archetypes, What would it be? |
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 Oct 2 2006, 09:05 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234  |
$350-1450 per lightfighter.com. You need two, one for the front, one for the back. |
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Oct 2 2006, 09:22 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Heh, that stuff they sell is well above the quality the average grunt gets from Uncle Sam. :D
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Oct 2 2006, 09:30 PM
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#28
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Oh good Christ, do you know what you've just started? This is one of those debates that seems to come up every so often. :) Generally splits into three main capms - the lets turn them into cyber-warriors, no cyber just use goggles and attachments for non-specialists and the middle ground of people advocating light enhancement of troops. I'm pretty much solidly in the no cyber enhancements except for people like riggers group.
Always wondered what sort of skills someone like a combat engineer would have, might not be in great demand unless it was a noisy structural damage job. But then small controlled demolition jobs or taking out certain sections or machinery, or even just blowing a hole in an awkward placed wall, would be very useful. One group of military people that would transfer straight over to Shadowrun's world would be the Air Force's Pararescue units - the medically trained special forces people sent in to recover downed polits, often behind enemy lines. I figure DocWagon and their competitors would have recruiters literally camped outside their bases throwing money at them to go work for them instead of re-upping at the end of their contract. |
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Oct 2 2006, 09:31 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Nah, the point blankplates are SAPI IIRC, not the ESAPI. As apparently the differences are classified (other then weight) I'm not sure. |
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Oct 2 2006, 09:54 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Wow. Checked it out, and had no idea the basic SAPIs are boron carbide -- I always assumed they were alumina plates. Make that $2200, then. :)
[Since SAPI is only rated at about the same as NIJ level III, I'm guessing ESAPI howevers somewhere slightly above level IV. One wonders, though, what's so special about them that they cost $600 a pop (according to this), when you can get 5.5lb level IV plates at $240 per on the civilian market.] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 2 2006, 10:00 PM |
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Oct 2 2006, 09:58 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I would agree if not for the relatively cheap heat control. But then I remembered penalties for having armor too big in relation to your Body and agree with you again. |
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Oct 2 2006, 09:59 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Per plate Austere Emancipator? So about $5000 or so for all the armour on a basic grunt including the inserts, the vest to plunk them into, and helmet to keep his brain from running out the top? The interesting discussions you find around here. :)
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Oct 2 2006, 10:07 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The standard SAPI plates are apparently worth around $350 each, the Interceptor OTV in Medium size is about $1000, and a MICH or ACH helmet is worth about $500, so ~$2200 for the whole setup. With ESAPI plates that's $2700. Add throat, groin, deltoid and axillary protectors and the side ballistic inserts and you're in the $3500-$4000 range -- but that's not "average grunt" gear as of right now.
This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 2 2006, 10:12 PM |
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Oct 2 2006, 10:15 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Last number I saw was that the rifleman's basic gear (without ammo and other expendables) was about $20,000 per. This includes rifle, uniform, NVG, armor, radio, etc. When bought in quantites of 20,000 or so. . . I can't find the source right now however. |
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Oct 2 2006, 10:15 PM
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#35
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Form Fitting body armour? I don't think its been published in Fourth Edition yet so we're probably waiting on Arsenal for it to appear but unless they change the rules and drastically up the cost I don't see why they wouldn't use it. Wear it under armoured clothing or camouflage suit, which ever you think best represents military uniform, and you've got a respectable armour value with little drawback. |
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Oct 2 2006, 10:35 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
It's also where you would run the cooling system. Which, while ignored by most games, is the real issue with wearing heavy armor. It's hot as hell. |
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Oct 2 2006, 10:35 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
The camouflage suit already provides 8/6 armor, second best to full body armor and surely better than the SR4 equivalent of form fitting armor. It's not really a "suit."
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Oct 3 2006, 11:15 AM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 3-October 06 Member No.: 9,527 |
Actually I beg to differ, they've got us in this crap in convoy platoons. I believe just about everyone going out the wire at this point (at least in baghdad) has IBAS + ESAPI + Side ESAPI + throat, shoulder and groin protectors (we don't use the side inserts that came with the shoulder pads, the ESAPI side plate carriers cover more and I already can barely move. We are about 5 pounds away from becoming turtles. Other things that I have noticed, ELECTRONICS SKILLS! Any soldier who has been with his unit for more than a year will know radio procedures and some basic maintenance, same with vehicles (usually utility and light tracks) As for cyberware... depends on if the soldiers are white hats or black. If we are assuming the government actually cares about them, I could see wired reflexes, otherwise, there's jazz and kamikaze. All I can come up with for now. Z |
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Oct 3 2006, 11:50 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Crikey, that's fast. Good to hear they're taking it seriously. The side ESAPI is the same as the "Enhanced Side Ballistic Insert"?
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Oct 3 2006, 01:06 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 3-October 06 Member No.: 9,527 |
its a cut down ESAPI plate dropped into a carrier. Its fun to watch small guys try to move their arms with them on, thank god for being big. One thing I've noticed about body armor is the lack of powered/reactive type armors. I've seen some neat articles about armor that "moves with the soldier" that makes moving with heavy loads much easier. One thing that needs to be mentioned is, if anything, the "Armor and Encumbrance" rules are too easy on heavily armored characters. To give you an idea I have been shooting since I was 9 (going straight from a .22 to an M-14... that hurt a LOT) Now I shoot a miserable prone in body armor (and that was before adding the side plates to my armor) I think any unsupported firing position should probably eat a -1 / pt of body. I can actually feel sympathy for Imperial Stormtroopers trying to hit the rebels... I feel their pain. Oh and check out the multi-hit visors on lightfighter... our gunners wear those... how do they aim? Good question. Z |
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Oct 3 2006, 04:31 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I can easily see Flare Comp and Dampening being standard in a lot of MOS's, including basic Infantry. Just thinking about all those Artillery guys with tinnitus...
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Oct 3 2006, 04:46 PM
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#42
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Skillwires.
Honestly, it's quite expensive to train those grunts - and far cheaper to wire them up and feed them softs. |
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Oct 3 2006, 04:55 PM
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#43
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
For some reason, I feel like there should be a reason why you're wrong, but I can't think of one. Ooh, how 'bout this? Sure, you could save millions of nuyen if you skip firearms training, and survival, and all that other training, but dang it, that stuff builds character and discipline, which you can't get on a chip. |
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Oct 3 2006, 04:55 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
But software can be compromised in all kinds of ways. I don't see any military, for it's regular forces, use skillwires as a substitute for learning skills.
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Oct 3 2006, 05:04 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Sure you can, personafix :) |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:16 PM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed, skipping physical training is not an option. But, everything else - why bother training them to use every weapon available if they just can switch to the right software? |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:24 PM
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#47
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Because, if you just grab someone off the street and slap skillwires on them and send them into battle, they're going to act like some schmoe you just grabbed off the street. They'll probably panic, freak out, and shoot the wrong thing (but with very high skill), or just do something catastrophically stupid. I'm suggesting that the training exists for purposes other than imparting skill. Although, like Lagomorph said, you could chip them with weapon skills, knowledge skills, and a personafix, but at that point why don't you just save a whole bunch of money and buy a drone? |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:25 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
For the same reason you need an editor, even when you have spellchecker and grammer checker?
Granted, there's no mechanical difference, but I have to think there's a realistic difference between trained and plugged in. Now whether it's enough of a difference, I don't know. |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:30 PM
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#49
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Training them to get used to combat situations is not really something expressed by skills...
The difference is quite simple: No Edge. And that matters less for grunts. |
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Oct 3 2006, 07:26 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
"Grunts" in a combat situation that lasts more than a few combat turns are going to find themselves using Running, Climbing, Dodge, 1-3 firearm/launch skills, possibly some of the close combat skills, Small-Unit Tactics, Ground Vehicle, Infiltration, Disguise (camoflague), Shadowing, Leadership, First Aid... and that's just assuming that they're in a little urban conflict with some vehicles and some other grunts on their side. The minute you start adding in things like drones, EW, combat magic, hacking, spirits, and all that other crazy stuff then skillwires flat-out ain't gonna handle it.
And it's one more piece of 'ware that can get shot up and fail catastrophically. You want to take some guy and put him on the street with an assault rifle as a gun-slave or something like that, then sure, personafix and the 2-4 skills you can get going simultaneously on a skillwire set will be enough. You actually want to get a soldier, they don't have the capacity to replace training. |
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