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WhiskeyMac
I've noticed that most people have made a character with some type of military background and that sometimes the skills don't really make sense for the background. So, I was wondering what would be a normal skillset for a soldier in the UCAS/CAS/Sioux/Pueblo/Aztlan army? I'm talking standard infantry soldier and then from there what would be the specialized skills for say, a drone rigger, magic support, heavy weapons support, and several other MOSs. I'm also kind of interested because of a future campaign idea as well. Thanks.
Slithery D
Infantry rifleman with about two years in, finished basic training and up to speed with his current unit:

Running (Long Distance) 3 (+2)
Climbing 2
Gynastics 1
Swimming 1

Automatics (Assault Rifles) 3 (+2)
Unarmed Combat 2
Clubs (Assault Rifles) 1 (+2)
Throwing Weapons (Lobbed) 2 (+2)
Pistols 1
Heavy Weapons 1

First Aid (Combat Wounds) 1 (+2)
Perception 3
Dodge 3
Survival 2
Etiquette (Military) 1 (+2)

That's 120 BP right there, if my quick calculations are correct. If he's airborne, add Parachuting. If an officer or experienced sergeant, Leadership and Navigation. More experienced or specialized troops will have higher firearms and athletics skills. The 2070 equivalent of today's SAW gunner, for example, would probably swap his Automatics and Heavy Weapons skills and specialize in Machine Guns.
Butterblume
Looks fine to me.

I am not entirely sure if long distance running is appropriate. Something like running(burdened) would be more usefull than running a marathon, I think wink.gif.

I'd add disguise(camouflage) 1(+2) and Infiltration(appropriate environment) 1(+2), but that might me by light infantry training wink.gif.
lorechaser
For those of us outside the miliatry, what are reasonable skills to pick up with a few years service, not including magic skills?

My thoughts:

Disguise (Camoflague)
Infiltration
Parachuting (for Airborne)
Diving (For Navy/SEALs)
Leadership/Instruction/Intimidation (for officers/drills)
Blade (Knife) (For marines/SEALs)
Navigation (General)
Aeronautics/Automotive/Nautical Mechanic (For greasemonkeys)
Armorer (Artillery) (Same)
Computer/Cybercombat (For Intel)
Demolitions (For commandos)
Pilot Aircraft/Ground Vehicle/Exotic Craft (For, you know, Pilots and drivers)
Gunnery (For gunners/Pilots)
blakkie
I see the Knowledge skill selection being very important in differentiating a career military character. They are going to have knowledge about their field, such as squad tactis for grunts, air traffic control for pilots, etc. as well as military code of conduct and politics in the army they have served in.
Slithery D
I chose long distance running speciality because we only really have two uses for running skill specialties right now: sprinting to go faster, and long distance to keep away fatigue damage. I figure the ability to run longer rather than a little faster is preferred.
WhiskeyMac
Thanks, those are quite helpful. Now, what about standard cyberware packages? I was thinking smartlink and cybereyes, minimum, what else do you think?

And those are good for an infantry soldier, what about a Combat Engineer or Combat Rigger?
Moon-Hawk
What would be a reasonable cyberware budget? Hmmm, that could be a really good incentive to get people to enlist for longer terms. Basically, if you're in for 4 years, we'll give you this. If you agree to stay for 10 years, you get all this!
blakkie
I think they are likely to retain hard Datajacks with optical wires vs. going with wireless due to the conditions the operate in. Especially pilots and rigged drivers.
Butterblume
Since soldiers almost always wear some kind of helmet, there is no need for even a datajack.

The most useful piece of cyberware would imo be wired reflexes 1, since it nearly doubles your offensive potential. They'd probably install it after 2 years, if you serve at least 2 more years.

Critias
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Thanks, those are quite helpful. Now, what about standard cyberware packages? I was thinking smartlink and cybereyes, minimum, what else do you think?

And those are good for an infantry soldier, what about a Combat Engineer or Combat Rigger?

Given how many of the benefits of a smartlink and/or cybereyes can be wholly duplicated by a cool set of goggles (especially those built right into a helmet), I don't see them giving soldiers any cyberware. Why should they implant them with stuff? Instead, they can just give them a neat helmet then take it back at the end of the enlistment (in much the same fashion, soldiers in the real world don't get their rifles super glued to their hands, never to be removed).
Slithery D
I think a case can be made for Wired 1 or Control Rigs for troops with special missions or longer term commitments, though. They're pretty damn cheap and a sizable force multiplier. Make your infantry fire, move to cover, etc. twice as fast, make your tank/helicopter/drone drivers noticeably sharper operators. Both cost less than many (re)enlistment bonuses today, and a peacetime army has plenty of time for their doctors to practice cybersurgery; hell, the main justification for DoD provided plastic surgery today is to give them some practice.
Moon-Hawk
Some quick internet research says that the US spends roughly $200,000 per soldier, per year. Let's go with the very rough approximation of $1-2006 = 1Y-2070. Let's say 10% of that goes to futuristic gear, either from reallocating existing funds or from additional funds, whatever, I think it's a pretty conservative estimate. That's 20,000Y. Let's do a basic 4-year term. 80,000Y for futuristic gear. That'll easily pay for wired reflexes 1, one VERY nice helmet with all the sensory bells and whistles, a very nice comlink with very nice security to handle the soldier's PAN, and what else? Sorry, I don't have my books on me, so I have no idea what I've "spent" so far.
DireRadiant
Need to feed them you know....
Moon-Hawk
Um, yeah, that comes out of the $200,000 per year. I'm assuming that several new fields of technology will justify a small increase in budget. Obviously I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but I think it's a decent starting point for trying to figure out approximately how much would be spent outfitting a 2070 soldier. I know it's somewhere between five bucks and a billion dollars, and I'm just trying to narrow that range down a little bit.
Slithery D
Full body armor w/helmet, environmental adaptation (cold or hot weather long term wear), and chemical seal is 14,000. Full sense enhancements (w/o ultrasound) would take us to 15-16k, reusable by later soldiers with some reconditioning and maintenance for an armor value of 12/10.

Let's hope hardened armor is hideously expensive when it reappears in Arsenal. It would be really aggravating if you need APDS in your assault rifle to be able to scratch the enemy soldiers you shot at.
Moon-Hawk
Even unhardened, if the enemy is wearing armor half as nice as that I'd think about using APDS.
blakkie
Keep in mind too that those are retail prices.

Incidentally what's the current retail price on a set of armor, including ceramic plates, found on your average grunt? Those plates have been around and in military use for a number of years now, so they would have issued when the price was much higher.

EDIT: As for soldiers with hardened armor I'm assuming that the high-end militaries like Ares, Aztec, and such will standard issue that for their actual field troops.
Slithery D
I wonder about the legality of advanced ammo types under the 2070 versions of the Geneva Conventions. My sense is that APDS would be ok, but fragmenting explosive rounds would not. But maybe in practice or even as a legal matter it's all been thrown out, and it's not like we have painful healing rules for fragmenting rounds that would justify their ban in SR-land.
lorechaser
What's the recovery time on something like Wired Reflexes, though?

If you're looking at cash, plus a two month loss of resources, it might not be worth it except in certain extreme circumstances....
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (lorechaser)
What's the recovery time on something like Wired Reflexes, though?

If you're looking at cash, plus a two month loss of resources, it might not be worth it except in certain extreme circumstances....

That's a very good point, and one I had not previously considered.
However, I would think that the recovery time is pretty short for that sort of thing, mostly because I don't see a long period of time after installing wired reflexes where your nerves don't work. I think that sort of thing is mostly done by nanites in the 2070's, with maybe a little cutting if there are larger bits to be installed.
Of course, any downtime that does occur would be when VR-training happens, such as elaborate VR simulations and/or electronics training like "electronic warfare 101" and "this is your commlink, don't use it for porn"
lorechaser
Excellent counterpoint!

Although I think most grunts are mysteriously absent the day that "This is your commlink, don't use it for porn" is taught....

"No sir, I did not receive that training, sir!" "No sir, I do not think that all catgirls are lesbians, or that they prefer trollish women with extra breasts. I do not know how that appeared on my comm, sir. Perhaps we have a prankster in the unit, sir!"
Moon-Hawk
Hahahaha.
It occurs to me that a sleep regulator would be an excellent bit of 'ware for a soldier. (probably because it's great for anyone) But I'm not sure the payoff would justify the cost, in this particular case.
What about reflex recorders as either a substitute for some training, or in addition to training?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (blakkie)
Incidentally what's the current retail price on a set of armor, including ceramic plates, found on your average grunt?

About $2k. Anywhere from, say, $700 to $1500 for a level III-A camouflaged tactical vest with web strips, about $500 for the helmet and $500 for two level III&IV ceramic rifle plates. The old PASGT stuff with SAPI plates would cost less.

I imagine the DoD pays much less than that, judging purely by the Second Chance/Zylon thing. Can't be bothered to check the procurement budget on that...
Butterblume
After you have trained your soldier to a reasonable level of competence, you can afford the two months until your soldier is fully mission capable again (this number is totally invented, and includes implanting and healing under excellent care, and training your new ability).


Also, you have to feed, house, pay, train, equip and heal your soldiers.


I think the basic rifleman would use a camouflage suit, not full body armor.


Ware like a sleep regulator or recorded reflexes I see as eminently suited for special units, not for the grunts.
[for an online campaign, which sadly never did go ahead, I had tried to create an officier for one of those special ops teams. I'll post him when this threads goes off topic biggrin.gif]


kzt
QUOTE (blakkie)
Keep in mind too that those are retail prices.

Incidentally what's the current retail price on a set of armor, including ceramic plates, found on your average grunt? Those plates have been around and in military use for a number of years now, so they would have issued when the price was much higher.

$350-1450 per lightfighter.com. You need two, one for the front, one for the back.
Austere Emancipator
Heh, that stuff they sell is well above the quality the average grunt gets from Uncle Sam. biggrin.gif
FlakJacket
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Thanks, those are quite helpful. Now, what about standard cyberware packages?

Oh good Christ, do you know what you've just started? This is one of those debates that seems to come up every so often. smile.gif Generally splits into three main capms - the lets turn them into cyber-warriors, no cyber just use goggles and attachments for non-specialists and the middle ground of people advocating light enhancement of troops. I'm pretty much solidly in the no cyber enhancements except for people like riggers group.

QUOTE
And those are good for an infantry soldier, what about a Combat Engineer or Combat Rigger?

Always wondered what sort of skills someone like a combat engineer would have, might not be in great demand unless it was a noisy structural damage job. But then small controlled demolition jobs or taking out certain sections or machinery, or even just blowing a hole in an awkward placed wall, would be very useful.

One group of military people that would transfer straight over to Shadowrun's world would be the Air Force's Pararescue units - the medically trained special forces people sent in to recover downed polits, often behind enemy lines. I figure DocWagon and their competitors would have recruiters literally camped outside their bases throwing money at them to go work for them instead of re-upping at the end of their contract.
kzt
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Heh, that stuff they sell is well above the quality the average grunt gets from Uncle Sam. biggrin.gif

Nah, the point blankplates are SAPI IIRC, not the ESAPI. As apparently the differences are classified (other then weight) I'm not sure.
Austere Emancipator
Wow. Checked it out, and had no idea the basic SAPIs are boron carbide -- I always assumed they were alumina plates. Make that $2200, then. smile.gif

[Since SAPI is only rated at about the same as NIJ level III, I'm guessing ESAPI howevers somewhere slightly above level IV. One wonders, though, what's so special about them that they cost $600 a pop (according to this), when you can get 5.5lb level IV plates at $240 per on the civilian market.]
Slithery D
QUOTE (Butterblume)
I think the basic rifleman would use a camouflage suit, not full body armor.

I would agree if not for the relatively cheap heat control. But then I remembered penalties for having armor too big in relation to your Body and agree with you again.
Brahm
Per plate Austere Emancipator? So about $5000 or so for all the armour on a basic grunt including the inserts, the vest to plunk them into, and helmet to keep his brain from running out the top? The interesting discussions you find around here. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
The standard SAPI plates are apparently worth around $350 each, the Interceptor OTV in Medium size is about $1000, and a MICH or ACH helmet is worth about $500, so ~$2200 for the whole setup. With ESAPI plates that's $2700. Add throat, groin, deltoid and axillary protectors and the side ballistic inserts and you're in the $3500-$4000 range -- but that's not "average grunt" gear as of right now.
kzt
QUOTE (Brahm)
Per plate Austere Emancipator? So about $5000 or so for all the armour on a basic grunt including the inserts, the vest to plunk them into, and helmet to keep his brain from running out the top? The interesting discussions you find around here. smile.gif

Last number I saw was that the rifleman's basic gear (without ammo and other expendables) was about $20,000 per. This includes rifle, uniform, NVG, armor, radio, etc. When bought in quantites of 20,000 or so. . .

I can't find the source right now however.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Oct 2 2006, 04:04 PM)
I think the basic rifleman would use a camouflage suit, not full body armor.

I would agree if not for the relatively cheap heat control. But then I remembered penalties for having armor too big in relation to your Body and agree with you again.

Form Fitting body armour? I don't think its been published in Fourth Edition yet so we're probably waiting on Arsenal for it to appear but unless they change the rules and drastically up the cost I don't see why they wouldn't use it. Wear it under armoured clothing or camouflage suit, which ever you think best represents military uniform, and you've got a respectable armour value with little drawback.
kzt
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Wear it under armoured clothing or camouflage suit, which ever you think best represents military uniform, and you've got a respectable armour value with little drawback.

It's also where you would run the cooling system. Which, while ignored by most games, is the real issue with wearing heavy armor. It's hot as hell.
Slithery D
The camouflage suit already provides 8/6 armor, second best to full body armor and surely better than the SR4 equivalent of form fitting armor. It's not really a "suit."
dabigz732
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The standard SAPI plates are apparently worth around $350 each, the Interceptor OTV in Medium size is about $1000, and a MICH or ACH helmet is worth about $500, so ~$2200 for the whole setup. With ESAPI plates that's $2700. Add throat, groin, deltoid and axillary protectors and the side ballistic inserts and you're in the $3500-$4000 range -- but that's not "average grunt" gear as of right now.

Actually I beg to differ, they've got us in this crap in convoy platoons. I believe just about everyone going out the wire at this point (at least in baghdad) has IBAS + ESAPI + Side ESAPI + throat, shoulder and groin protectors (we don't use the side inserts that came with the shoulder pads, the ESAPI side plate carriers cover more and I already can barely move. We are about 5 pounds away from becoming turtles.

Other things that I have noticed, ELECTRONICS SKILLS! Any soldier who has been with his unit for more than a year will know radio procedures and some basic maintenance, same with vehicles (usually utility and light tracks)

As for cyberware... depends on if the soldiers are white hats or black. If we are assuming the government actually cares about them, I could see wired reflexes, otherwise, there's jazz and kamikaze.

All I can come up with for now.

Z
Austere Emancipator
Crikey, that's fast. Good to hear they're taking it seriously. The side ESAPI is the same as the "Enhanced Side Ballistic Insert"?
dabigz732
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Crikey, that's fast. Good to hear they're taking it seriously. The side ESAPI is the same as the "Enhanced Side Ballistic Insert"?

its a cut down ESAPI plate dropped into a carrier. Its fun to watch small guys try to move their arms with them on, thank god for being big.

One thing I've noticed about body armor is the lack of powered/reactive type armors. I've seen some neat articles about armor that "moves with the soldier" that makes moving with heavy loads much easier.

One thing that needs to be mentioned is, if anything, the "Armor and Encumbrance" rules are too easy on heavily armored characters. To give you an idea I have been shooting since I was 9 (going straight from a .22 to an M-14... that hurt a LOT) Now I shoot a miserable prone in body armor (and that was before adding the side plates to my armor) I think any unsupported firing position should probably eat a -1 / pt of body. I can actually feel sympathy for Imperial Stormtroopers trying to hit the rebels... I feel their pain.

Oh and check out the multi-hit visors on lightfighter... our gunners wear those... how do they aim? Good question.

Z
Shrike30
I can easily see Flare Comp and Dampening being standard in a lot of MOS's, including basic Infantry. Just thinking about all those Artillery guys with tinnitus...
Rotbart van Dainig
Skillwires.
Honestly, it's quite expensive to train those grunts - and far cheaper to wire them up and feed them softs.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Skillwires.
Honestly, it's quite expensive to train those grunts - and far cheaper to wire them up and feed them softs.

For some reason, I feel like there should be a reason why you're wrong, but I can't think of one.
Ooh, how 'bout this? Sure, you could save millions of nuyen if you skip firearms training, and survival, and all that other training, but dang it, that stuff builds character and discipline, which you can't get on a chip.
Mistwalker
But software can be compromised in all kinds of ways. I don't see any military, for it's regular forces, use skillwires as a substitute for learning skills.
Lagomorph
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
if you skip firearms training, and survival, and all that other training, but dang it, that stuff builds character and discipline, which you can't get on a chip.

Sure you can, personafix smile.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Sure, you could save millions of nuyen if you skip firearms training, and survival, and all that other training, but dang it, that stuff builds character and discipline, which you can't get on a chip.

Indeed, skipping physical training is not an option.
But, everything else - why bother training them to use every weapon available if they just can switch to the right software?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Oct 3 2006, 06:55 PM)
Sure, you could save millions of nuyen if you skip firearms training, and survival, and all that other training, but dang it, that stuff builds character and discipline, which you can't get on a chip.

Indeed, skipping physical training is not an option.
But, everything else - why bother training them to use every weapon available if they just can switch to the right software?

Because, if you just grab someone off the street and slap skillwires on them and send them into battle, they're going to act like some schmoe you just grabbed off the street. They'll probably panic, freak out, and shoot the wrong thing (but with very high skill), or just do something catastrophically stupid.
I'm suggesting that the training exists for purposes other than imparting skill. Although, like Lagomorph said, you could chip them with weapon skills, knowledge skills, and a personafix, but at that point why don't you just save a whole bunch of money and buy a drone?
lorechaser
For the same reason you need an editor, even when you have spellchecker and grammer checker?

Granted, there's no mechanical difference, but I have to think there's a realistic difference between trained and plugged in.

Now whether it's enough of a difference, I don't know.
Rotbart van Dainig
Training them to get used to combat situations is not really something expressed by skills...

The difference is quite simple:
No Edge. And that matters less for grunts.
Shrike30
"Grunts" in a combat situation that lasts more than a few combat turns are going to find themselves using Running, Climbing, Dodge, 1-3 firearm/launch skills, possibly some of the close combat skills, Small-Unit Tactics, Ground Vehicle, Infiltration, Disguise (camoflague), Shadowing, Leadership, First Aid... and that's just assuming that they're in a little urban conflict with some vehicles and some other grunts on their side. The minute you start adding in things like drones, EW, combat magic, hacking, spirits, and all that other crazy stuff then skillwires flat-out ain't gonna handle it.

And it's one more piece of 'ware that can get shot up and fail catastrophically.

You want to take some guy and put him on the street with an assault rifle as a gun-slave or something like that, then sure, personafix and the 2-4 skills you can get going simultaneously on a skillwire set will be enough. You actually want to get a soldier, they don't have the capacity to replace training.
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