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WhiskeyMac
I would say no to skillwires simply because it makes them a robot. Not like they aren't already biggrin.gif It just makes them even more robotic and less likely to adapt to an ever changing battlefield. If urban combat in 2006 is ever-evolving I can't even imagine what 2070 urban combat would be like with magic, drones and everything else thrown in.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Shrike30)
"Grunts" in a combat situation that lasts more than a few combat turns are going to find themselves using Running, Climbing, Dodge, 1-3 firearm/launch skills, possibly some of the close combat skills, Small-Unit Tactics, Ground Vehicle, Infiltration, Disguise (camoflague), Shadowing, Leadership, First Aid... and that's just assuming that they're in a little urban conflict with some vehicles and some other grunts on their side.  The minute you start adding in things like drones, EW, combat magic, hacking, spirits, and all that other crazy stuff then skillwires flat-out ain't gonna handle it.

And if you want a character that really posesses those skill on a valid level, you better start with more than 500 BP.
Or you could implant skillwires and reduce training to things you have to do at the same time with something else.
Which usually means Physical Skills, plus Dodge and Close Combat.

The rest you either leave to specialists or load it.
Shrike30
Assuming you allocate 3 to each of those nifty skills I listed that a soldier might want (15 in all), you've spent 180 points on skills. A number of those skills could easily be accurately represented as a 1-2 on a "grunt," but 3 gives us a nice round number. Combine that with 200 points spent on attributes, and you've got 20 points left for resources, a nice total of 100k nuyen worth of cash to get spent on god-knows-what.

Not exactly a huge issue at 400 points.
Rotbart van Dainig
You would be better off buying skillgroups - only to realize that you still got average attributes at best, not even counting for skills like Perception.
That still leaves your grunt without survival and insertion skills, not to speak of specialist skills like electronics or magic.

And if there is any real experience or tough training, make that an average skill of 4.
Those things add up pretty quickly, and a skillwire is always great to cover some skills you don't always need.

Not to speak of that it is the total winner for the beancounters - more versatiles troups combat-ready in shorter time and for less money.
Crusher Bob
Also, exploit specialties. A skill of automatics 1 (Assault Rifles) will give you the same effect as Automatics 3, and be much cheaper in karma (training time/costs).
WhiskeyMac
The thing is Rotbart, skillwires aren't a good idea. Yes they give you training cheaper and faster than normal but they don't allow adaptation. Adaptation is an important part of the modern (futuristic) battlefield. Sure, you can make that city boy from KCK a great shot with minor surgery and cost but all he can do is shoot exactly like the skillwires tell him, otherwise he is just a normal city boy.

I would say specializations definitely are a valid military skill. They only use 1 type of AR or pistol until you get into the Special Forces and you can pick and choose between a few.
Zen Shooter01
You don't actually need skills for a lot of things in SR. It gets overlooked a lot, but let's say you're grunt has Logic 3, Edge 3, and is commlinked to HQ. He has to fix a piece of electronics, but doesn't have the skill. So he uses AR instructions and Edge, and rolls 7 dice with exploding sixes.

A lot of tight spots can be wriggled out of like this.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Yes they give you training cheaper and faster than normal but they don't allow adaptation. Adaptation is an important part of the modern (futuristic) battlefield.

In strategy, tactics and movement, indeed.
But... guns?

QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Sure, you can make that city boy from KCK a great shot with minor surgery and cost but all he can do is shoot exactly like the skillwires tell him, otherwise he is just a normal city boy.

That's a whole different kettle of fish.
Critias
I think it's kind of funny that some people with military experience are trying to answer this thread, and people without it just keep arguing with them that cyberware do just fine instead of skills. It's kind a cute little disconnect.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Critias)
I think it's kind of funny that some people with military experience are trying to answer this thread, and people without it just keep arguing with them that cyberware do just fine instead of skills.  It's kind a cute little disconnect.

It's even more funny when people with obvious telepathic or omniscient abilities to distinguish those groups pop up.
Unfortunately, those don't continue to elaborate on their extensive knowledge about neurology and integration of external memories in a SciFic setting...
morlock76
To cyber or not, is the question...

Even though the SR4 prices went down pretty far, the regular grunt wont have much ware in him.
I dont think its much of a problem cost wise, specially as offensive cyberware will increase the value of a soldier significantly, but its a question of reintegration after service.

I would imagine that there would be offers, basically like there are now: serve X years and gain Y monetary bonus.
For soldiers that are in for a longer time (4 years+) I could imagine a part of that bonus being avaliable as part payment of cyberware to increase overall survivability, aka. defensive cyberware.
If your in it for real (8 years+) I could imagine some offensive stuff as well.
Given the timeframes stated, the corp / country can be sure to get its money worth and be certain that the drill (and moral values) will really sink in.
(I am on the "no skillwires" point of the fence)

And for the PR guys its a much nicer punch line:
We take care of our own and make sure they dont suffer (fatal) injuries.
Or would you want some former soldier going on a killing spree, powered by the wired reflexes your own country put in him?

I only served my draft time (10 month) and basically missed most of the "military" stuff, but if you ask me, Id upgrade on stuff that gets me home safe (just like cops buying their personal vest or a better model etc.).
Ranneko
I would expect the no skill wires for your typical military situation, however if you introduced conscription into the equation because you needed to pump out more soldiers due to a serious conflict, then I would expect skillwires to re-enter the equation.
6thDragon
On average, conscripts serve much shorter service lengths than volunteers. Therefore governments would be even less likely to implant skillwires into conscripts because of the cost-to-service length ratio. It simply wouldn't be worth there effort. If the military found itself short of particular skillsets, I think they would continue to do what they do today...outsource. Especially with all the professional merc groups in SR. The only exception to all this would be if the company making the cyber were in a influential politician's (either on the procurement or armed service committees) district. If there is one thing I learned in the military, just because its the best choice doesn't mean they'll do it.
Zen Shooter01
I think that in the 6th World the "average grunt" would be disappearing.

Conflict in the 6th World tends to be low intensity, and the two basic types of combatant entities - whether nations, corporations, ethnic groups, religious groups, criminal syndicates, or any other sizable organization - are rich ones and poor ones. A lot like today.

Rich combatants will empasize the force multiplier of rigged combat vehicles, especially drones that can go anywhere an infantryman can go. They will also put a lot of emphasis into comparatively small units of elite, super-loyal troops who will be heavily cybered. But those troops will be tightly controlled with a combination of carrots (high pay, high social standing, warrior esprit de corps) and sticks (cortex bombs, public shame, etc.). As a result, few of them will end up in the shadows as independents.

Rich combatants who want to fight other rich combatants will also emphasize their combat hackers, because combat hackers are the ultimate force multiplier. They can shut down or subvert the enemy's communications, not to mention their vehicles.

Poor combatants will recruit in hordes from the desperate and the ignorant, and just hand out Kalashnikovs, machetes, and IEDs to everybody. Just like they do today. Poor combatants are also likely to be the ones hiring shadowrunners to hit military targets, because it's cheaper to hire independent contractors as needed than to train and maintain permanent forces.
Narmio
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
I think that in the 6th World the "average grunt" would be disappearing.

Conflict in the 6th World tends to be low intensity, and the two basic types of combatant entities - whether nations, corporations, ethnic groups, religious groups, criminal syndicates, or any other sizable organization - are rich ones and poor ones. A lot like today.

Usage of the average grunt may be disappearing, but I highly doubt that nations will throw away the concept of a standing army and go entirely commando...

There's always the potential of getting caught with your pants down. And when you're going commando, well... That can be a problem.
Crusher Bob
Here, how do these looks for basic training and advanced infantry training. Assume that military training gives 3-4 karma a week.

Basic Training (8-10 weeks)

Automatics 1 (Assault Rifles) (6 karma)
Etiquette 1 (Military) (6 karma)
First Aid 1 (4 karma)
Athletics Group 1 (10 karma)
Blades 1 (4 karma) (Do bayonets + rifles count as pole arms?)

Total Cost 30 karma

Advanced Infantry Training (another 8-10 weeks)

Automatics 1 -> 2 (4 karma)
Heavy Weapons 1 (4 karma)
Thrown Weapons 1 (Grenades (6 karma)
Athletics Group 1->2 (10 karma)
Add First Aid Specialty 'Combat Wounds) (2 karma)
Armorer? 1 (4 karma)

Total Cost 30 karma

Ending with:

Automatics 2 (Assualt Rifles)
Thrown Weapons (Grenades) 1
Heavy Weapons 1
Blades? 1
Etiquette 1 (Military)
First Aid 1 (Combat Wounds)
Athletics Group 2
Armorer 1

What about knowledge skills?

Teaching the following additional skills
Infiltration 1
Navigation 1
Perception 1
Survial 1

Would take another 4-6 week course on the same karma standards.


Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
I think that in the 6th World the "average grunt" would be disappearing.

If there is one thing safe to assume, then it is that the "average grunt" wont disappear as long as there is the concept of war between humans.

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
What about knowledge skills?

There is one very specific skill the book mentions, and everyone here was so keen on notingit indirectly:
It's called 'Military Service' or just plain 'Military', and is a Professional Knowledge skill, representing formal military training.

And as skillsoft 'are highly favored, however, by corporations interested in cheap labor (no need to spend years of education on technicians when you can simply equip some grunt with a knowsoft)', I don't really see a reason why it would be unusual to meet people that sport some.
Dragonscript
Swap out Blade for Unarmed.

What people are forgetting is the use of AR. For the basic, common soldier you have GPS instead of navagation. You have AR overlay with a smart program for First-aid. The same for repair skills.

Also remember, 3/4 of a modern military doesn't have combat as it's primary job, but to support the Combat Troops to do thiers.

So, crusher bob, most of those kills will need to be at 3 or 4 for combat troops.
Slithery D
Athletics group is probably unrealistic past level 1. You can get by without Swimming at all, and Gymnastics isn't that useful, either. It's going to be mostly Running, with some Climbing for getting over obstacles, especially in the infantry.

Navigation skill will indeed be only an officer/senior NCO thing.
Critias
QUOTE (Dragonscript)
Swap out Blade for Unarmed.

What people are forgetting is the use of AR. For the basic, common soldier you have GPS instead of navagation. You have AR overlay with a smart program for First-aid. The same for repair skills.

Also remember, 3/4 of a modern military doesn't have combat as it's primary job, but to support the Combat Troops to do thiers.

So, crusher bob, most of those kills will need to be at 3 or 4 for combat troops.

All of which can break, and then you're screwed. The last thing a military wants is someone defaulting on land navigation or first aid checks.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Yes they give you training cheaper and faster than normal but they don't allow adaptation. Adaptation is an important part of the modern (futuristic) battlefield.

In strategy, tactics and movement, indeed.
But... guns?

I'm not telepathic, but I think the point that certain people are trying to make is:
Going through the process of learning how to use guns is ALSO the process by which one learns strategy, tactics, and movement. If you remove the process of training guns, you necessarily remove the process of learning strategy, tactics, and movement with said guns, and replace it with ONLY the knowledge of how to hit target with gun.

I'm not sure, but I think that's what people might be saying.
For those of you out there who aren't telepathic, I am not military, I have never been to boot camp.

Anyway, I'm definitely against skillwires for any "basic" soldiering skills. But that's always been the case with skillwires, hasn't it? You don't use chips for the skills you intend to use. You use skillwires for the skills you didn't know you would need until the need is upon you, and you can get a chip in a LOT less time than you could learn the skill.
Slithery D
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (Dragonscript @ Oct 4 2006, 11:21 AM)
Swap out Blade for Unarmed.

What people are forgetting is the use of AR.  For the basic, common soldier you have GPS instead of navagation.  You have AR overlay with a smart program for First-aid.  The same for repair skills.

All of which can break, and then you're screwed. The last thing a military wants is someone defaulting on land navigation or first aid checks.

The last thing they want is for someone in charge to be defaulting on land navigation. It's not basic course for everyone.

You're certainly right about First Aid, though.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Athletics group is probably unrealistic past level 1. You can get by without Swimming at all, and Gymnastics isn't that useful, either. It's going to be mostly Running, with some Climbing for getting over obstacles, especially in the infantry.

Gymnastics is imo quite useful for Infantry, especially balance, jumping and tumbling. The question is, if crawling also falls under this skill (I think it does).

We actually used swimming in basic training, when we swam over waters (7°celsius cold mountain seas *shudder*) with all our gear. Later on, we even had PT swimming sessions wink.gif.
Shrike30
Having grunts that can do things like keep their balance while doing something odd or swim across small rivers while carrying gear is kinda handy.

As for ending up with "average attributes" and still being limited in skills... it's a grunt. What do you want, ninjas? Buy some skill groups to save some points, shave a few other skills down from 3 to 2 (or 1), and you've got points enough to create most everyone's impression of a PFC.

400 points is considered enough to build some pretty stylin' shadowrunners... I *hope* it's enough to build reasonable grunts.
Dragonscript
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (Dragonscript @ Oct 4 2006, 11:21 AM)
Swap out Blade for Unarmed.

What people are forgetting is the use of AR.  For the basic, common soldier you have GPS instead of navagation.  You have AR overlay with a smart program for First-aid.  The same for repair skills.

Also remember, 3/4 of a modern military doesn't have combat as it's primary job, but to support the Combat Troops to do thiers.

So, crusher bob, most of those kills will need to be at 3 or 4 for combat troops.

All of which can break, and then you're screwed. The last thing a military wants is someone defaulting on land navigation or first aid checks.

lol, 1 rank in first aid is maybe a red cross first aid class and while land navigation is required training in bootcamp, it is not required to pass it.

First aid for soldiers:

Start the Breathing
Stop the bleeding
Protect the wound
Treat for shock

Also, don't forget that a level 6 mapsoft only cost 30$, a level 1 medkit cost 100$ and a trauma patch cost 500$. All very effective replacements for skills that a common soldier wouldn't use on a day to day basis.

Special forces are a different matter.
dabigz732
QUOTE (Dragonscript)
lol, 1 rank in first aid is maybe a red cross first aid class and while land navigation is required training in bootcamp, it is not required to pass it.

First aid for soldiers:

Start the Breathing
Stop the bleeding
Protect the wound
Treat for shock

Also, don't forget that a level 6 mapsoft only cost 30$, a level 1 medkit cost 100$ and a trauma patch cost 500$. All very effective replacements for skills that a common soldier wouldn't use on a day to day basis.

Special forces are a different matter.

Actually they taught us "Really Big Breasts Should Fill Both Hands Sir"

OR

Responsiveness - Is he conciouss or reasonably able to help you
Breathing - Is there a good air exchange
Bleeding - 99.9999 percent of the time we are told to go straight to the tourniquet in combat. Less time and fewer chances to screw up. We move guys back to hospitals so fast the docs can save the limb anyway.

(fun comment on B&B from a nurse friend of mine - Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, variations from this standard should be corrected immediately)

Shock - Prevention mostly, not many ways you can treat shock
Fractures - Splint and get it secured to move
Burns - or 99 uses for mud
Head and Neck injuries - Or "why moving somoene with a broken neck is bad"
and finally

Seek further aid - or "how to call MEDIC real loud"

Training with your unit will usually include combat lifesaver training, particularly giving IVs and making sure someone is really safe to move. My entire unit is technically qualified for this. This keeps me up at night.

I could see anyone who is actually in for a career getting skillwires and wired reflexes. Helmets can do anything headware requires, skillwires would be used for mission specific skills or situation specfic, like "hey what was that noise from the truck" *snik* "oh just the flux capacitor again," and wired reflexes would give each squad a guy or two who can crank it up without kamikaze or jazz.

What do you guys think about combat drugs? I can safely say my 1sg or SMaj would have NO trouble drugging us up... long as they didnt have to do it themselves.

I think if things trend the way they will drones are going to be down to just about squad level. Our bttn. was going to get a UAV for a while, then they centralized them.

One thing that the military is probably going to be moving towards is AP ammo / heavier rifles. Body armor is a reality and the military is going to have to change in the face of it.

blakkie
QUOTE (dabigz732 @ Oct 4 2006, 12:38 PM)
What do you guys think about combat drugs?  I can safely say my 1sg or SMaj would have NO trouble drugging us up... long as they didnt have to do it themselves. 

I think we know what the USAF's stance is on this. Go pills anyone? Those are, as used, roughly equivalent to Cram. Although in higher doses than used in the USAF, where the really bad things can happen, they maybe more like Jazz.

Basically the USAF is feeding small doses of pharmacy grade meth to their crews for really longhaul missions.
dabigz732
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (dabigz732 @ Oct 4 2006, 12:38 PM)
What do you guys think about combat drugs?  I can safely say my 1sg or SMaj would have NO trouble drugging us up... long as they didnt have to do it themselves. 

I think we know what the USAF's stance is on this. Go pills anyone? Those are, as used, roughly equivalent to Cram. Although in higher doses that currently used in the USAF, where the really bad things can happen, they maybe more like Jazz.

Basically the USAF is feeding small doses of pharmacy grade meth to their crews for really longhaul missions.

You know I remember reading about that in Every Man a Tiger... didn't Horner land pretty hard on the whole "go no-go" pills before the campaign ended?

Z
blakkie
QUOTE (dabigz732 @ Oct 4 2006, 01:11 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 4 2006, 02:08 PM)
QUOTE (dabigz732 @ Oct 4 2006, 12:38 PM)
What do you guys think about combat drugs?  I can safely say my 1sg or SMaj would have NO trouble drugging us up... long as they didnt have to do it themselves. 

I think we know what the USAF's stance is on this. Go pills anyone? Those are, as used, roughly equivalent to Cram. Although in higher doses that currently used in the USAF, where the really bad things can happen, they maybe more like Jazz.

Basically the USAF is feeding small doses of pharmacy grade meth to their crews for really longhaul missions.

You know I remember reading about that in Every Man a Tiger... didn't Horner land pretty hard on the whole "go no-go" pills before the campaign ended?

I haven't read Every Man a Tiger, but there is definitely controversy over go/no-go pills. For example the subject come up over that FF incident in Afganistan where two US fighter pilots bombed a squad of Canadians who were doing night training on a practice range.
Zen Shooter01
Where wired reflexes would really shine is in squad support weapons.

Except you can just by a smart platform instead.
Shrike30
Yeah, but then you gotta carry it around. And go back and get it (rather than just ordering the gunner to move) when it's time to move again. And there's the whole "drones aren't all that perceptive" problem. And the fact that it can't relocate easily if it gets assaulted.

I think they'd be great for putting things like mortars, SAMs, etc at the company level, but not particularly good for the more direct-application kind of weapons like MGs.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Dragonscript @ Oct 5 2006, 12:21 AM)
So, crusher bob, most of those kills will need to be at 3 or 4 for combat troops.

Everybody goes through basic training. If you are something other than a rifleman, then you probably go to something other than advanced infantry training (i.e. make another 30 karma package for whatever the guy is supposed to be doing).

I was also emphasizing the skills at one since they get you past the defaulting penalty. A little training moves you from 2 dice (defaulting with a stat of 3) up to 4 dice. Adding a specialty to that moves you up to 6 dice, and that's only 6 karma spent.

The athletics group is a bit of a game artifact, just running and climbing cost about the same. Might as well learn balance and falling down gracefully (gymnastics) while you are at it.

Now, for showing some troops with time in service. Assuming that you earn 1 karma/week and can expect 4-6 weeks of intensive training a year (at 3-4 karma a week) this means that our guy out of AIT will earn another ~26 karma in his first year os service and then another ~60 karma (48 at 1/week + 4 weeks @ 3/week) in his second year.

So his stats after two years might look like (you'll see plenty of variation here):

body 4 (can wear camo suit without penalty) (12 karma)

(4-6 weeks training course) (16 karma)
Infiltration 1
Navigation 1
Perception 1
Survival 1

Perception 1->2 (4 karma)
Pilot Ground Craft 1 (or raise from 1->2 if they already knew how to drive) (4 karma)
etiquette 1->2 (4 karma)
Unarmed Combat 1 (4 karma)
Automatics 2->3 (6 karma)
Infiltration 1->2 (4 karma)
Running 2->3 + (long distance) (breaking athletics group) (8 karma)

(on the assumption that most assault rifles will have attached GLs in 2070)
Heavy Weapons 1->2 + (Grenade Launchers) 6 karma

Total: 68 karma

Ending with:

Body 4

Automatics 3 (Assualt Rifles)
Thrown Weapons 1 (Grenades)
Heavy Weapons 2 (Grenade Launcher)
Unarmed Combat? 1
Blades? 1
Etiquette 2 (Military)
First Aid 1 (Combat Wounds)
Armorer 1
Infiltration 2
Navigation 1
Perception 2
Survial 1
Pilot Ground Craft 1
Climbing 2
Swimming 2
Gymnastics 2
Running 3 (Long distance)
Cleremond
Having served 6 years active duty U.S. Army, the above skill set I would say is just about right on for soldiers E-1 through E-4 in the combat arms. Service support and combat service support personnel would have a slightly different skillset which would more accurately reflect their chosen MOS (i.e. Mechanic, Driver, Cook, Medical, Administrative, etc.)

Very good post.
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