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> Where does the inspiration for SR magic come from?
emo samurai
post Oct 2 2006, 03:48 PM
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Is it mostly New Age stuff? I think this is a question for freelancers.
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mfb
post Oct 2 2006, 04:16 PM
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one part D&D, one part Not D&D.
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blakkie
post Oct 2 2006, 04:33 PM
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The part that is D&D pretty damn small, I think. As in it is almost the antithesis of D&D magic. Or was that D&D's contribution, an inspiration to NOT make it like that?
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eidolon
post Oct 2 2006, 04:45 PM
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Actually, there's almost no Vancian quality to SR magic at all. I also wouldn't compare it to systems using mana or spell points, because theoretically with the right rolls a mage in SR never has to stop casting spells.

At the moment, I can't think of another system like this, although Burning Wheel might use something similar (cast until you can't because you're tired/damaged). Midnight's channeler might be similar too, but it has been an while since I read it. WoT maybe as well. (So I guess I can think of a few that are somewhat similar, but none that really strike me as influencial due to the timing of releases.)
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Drraagh
post Oct 2 2006, 04:53 PM
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I ran into this a while back about SR, and it mentions how magic got brought into SR and where they got their original inspiration from.

SHADOWRUN: The World Behind the Cards
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eidolon
post Oct 2 2006, 05:06 PM
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Hey, cool article. Thanks.
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Drraagh
post Oct 2 2006, 06:17 PM
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No problem.


One of my favorites is the Big D part.

To no one's surprise, the dragon Dunkelzahn won by a landslide -- but it surprised everyone when, in the very moment of the dragon's victory, FASA announced his assassination.

"It was so unexpected," says SR line developer Mike Mulvihill, who masterminded the election adventures. "We made it feel like an actual press event. I had people calling my hotel room at 1 or 2 in the morning, asking if it was true. I'm amazed at how well it turned out."
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mfb
post Oct 2 2006, 06:21 PM
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SR cribs off of D&D-style/Jack Vance magic in the style of its spells, and in the character of its mages. the whole concept of mages that cast flashy effects like explosions, magical zap beams, and the like was largely popularized by D&D. there are certainly other sources, but it seems to me that D&D is central to the RPG/fantasy novel industry's concept of magic.

i also see D&Dism in SR's concept of 'elements'. especially in 2nd ed, they were always expanding on the original earth-air-fire-water setup--paraelements, quasielements, yadda yadda yadda, until the whole concept got kinda blurry. 'element', somewhere along the way, kinda lost its original definition and mutated from "basis of all matter and energy" into "different ways you can deal damage". SR picks up right where Planescape left off, with its lighting and sand and wood and what-have-you.

and, of course, there are the parallels between the D&D mage class and hermetic magic: bookish guys whose magic is fuelled by education rather than intuition. not that all SR hermetics (or even all D&D mages, these days) conform to that type, but that's the default style of both.
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SL James
post Oct 2 2006, 07:52 PM
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I suspect that part of the change in magic in 2e and 3e were also influenced by the author's own personal knowledge and biases with regard to RL magic (or at least, a very specific aspect of it), which also includes the creeping change in tone of derision towards that bookish hermetic class.

It is New Age-ish to the extent that there is a class of existing magic(k) that deals with concepts that directly translate into Shadowrun's magical rules like astral perception, projection, Shielding, warding, and ritual magic. However, I would hardly put Shadowrun at the forefront of appropriating those ideas into its game.
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 2 2006, 07:56 PM
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I'd noticed that as well, which was why I liked the different paradigims in SOTA. Hermetics became the whipping boys for a while, most shadowtalk was shamans slamming hermetics, with little bits of fluff backing them up. We need a New Hermetic Rennaisance.
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SL James
post Oct 2 2006, 07:57 PM
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No, we needed Steve Kenson to take his own personal beliefs and shove them up his ass.

Because, in case you didn't know, he believes in and practices "real" magic.
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krayola red
post Oct 2 2006, 07:57 PM
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Everybody knows that hermetics are really just a bunch of nerds that need a good beating up.
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emo samurai
post Oct 2 2006, 08:00 PM
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Dude, binding elementals rocks. :grr:
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PBTHHHHT
post Oct 2 2006, 08:04 PM
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And all the shamans are a bunch of tree huggers who smoked one too many...
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emo samurai
post Oct 2 2006, 08:14 PM
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Nah, shamans are cool, too.

What did Steve Kenson do to hermetics?
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 2 2006, 08:33 PM
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Kenson is , IIRC, in to Wiccan, and doesn't really care for hermetic, at least by his writing style. Read Magic in The Shadows and some of his other work, and you'll see a general lean away from hermetic and moretowrds shamanistic or totem stlye magic.
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emo samurai
post Oct 2 2006, 09:30 PM
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But... but hermetic magic rocks!!! :.(...
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eidolon
post Oct 2 2006, 09:40 PM
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Is this a measurable overt bias, or yet another rumor induced "I see it! I see it!" reaction, he wondered.
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 2 2006, 09:41 PM
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Yeah, I was gonna say, it came from Stephen Kenson.

I'm not sure Kenson hates hermetics, though. Isn't Talon a hermetic?
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 2 2006, 09:41 PM
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No it doesn't. It stays home and studies astrological charts while the shaman next door goes out and listens to neo-tribal-goblin-rock.

And it doesn't like it when you cry either. :)
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Fygg Nuuton
post Oct 2 2006, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 2 2006, 02:41 PM)
Yeah, I was gonna say, it came from Stephen Kenson.

I'm not sure Kenson hates hermetics, though.  Isn't Talon a hermetic?

Talon also fornicates his ally spirit so his views on the world are skewed.

I'm in a purely business relationship with my ally spirit.
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 2 2006, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 2 2006, 02:41 PM)
Yeah, I was gonna say, it came from Stephen Kenson.

I'm not sure Kenson hates hermetics, though.  Isn't Talon a hermetic?

Talon also fornicates his ally spirit so his views on the world are skewed.

I'm in a purely business relationship with my ally spirit.

Eh, he did? I thought he just had his gay romantic relationship with an older man who was a mage who was also, like, a father figure to him. And then some gangers killed his adoptive father/gay lover so then Talon flipped out and cast Hellfire on the gangers before it was retconned in 3rd ed. And then later Talon had to go on some astral quest to beg the forgiveness of the gangers he killed or something like that.
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blakkie
post Oct 2 2006, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 2 2006, 10:53 AM)
I ran into this a while back about SR, and it mentions how magic got brought into SR and where they got their original inspiration from.

SHADOWRUN: The World Behind the Cards

Rocking!
QUOTE (mfb)
SR cribs off of D&D-style/Jack Vance magic in the style of its spells, and in the character of its mages. the whole concept of mages that cast flashy effects like explosions, magical zap beams, and the like was largely popularized by D&D.

I suppose there are some certain similarities there, so I see where you are getting at. Perhaps this is more an effect of both being relatively combative games?

But everything else is very different. Separation of sorcery from conjuring. Little to no requirements for spell components, somantics, or speech. The whole astral overlay on the physical world. The correlation between Hermetics and Wizards is, well, tenuois I think. Especially given that the Shamans and Hermetics have the same list of spells, and largely their magic came from and worked on the same basic principles. Whereas Wizards and Clerics initially have very, very different focuses on their spell lists and what they can do and where their magic comes from.

Just the fact that Shadowrun actually tries to explain magical theory in rational and explict terms is very different from D&D.
QUOTE (eidolon)
At the moment, I can't think of another system like this, although Burning Wheel might use something similar

Burning Wheel's magic is indeed set upon the same basic concept. I suspect if you asked Luke Crane he'd confirm that it is a total ripoff of Shadowrun which he even lists at the back of the book as a influence for the system. Incidentally Luke originally started out developing Burning Wheel as a cyberpunk game, which makes it's recent transformation into Burning Empires almost a homecoming of sorts. In more ways than one given that he's long been a fan of the Iron Empires books and wanted to write a licensed game for it.

However obviously Burning Wheel was fixed TN before Shadowrun converted fully to fixed TN. Perhaps that was somewhat circular too? Where Burning Wheel showed how well a Shadowrun type magic system could function under a fixed TN system?


P.S. I've not read Shadows of Yesterday but it wouldn't surprise me if it's mechanics were similar. It is suppose to have been very heavily influenced by SR too. Such as their mythical elfs and drawves are very much like metahumans in that they aren't exactly what the myths said they were suppose to be.
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 2 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 2 2006, 02:41 PM)
Yeah, I was gonna say, it came from Stephen Kenson.

I'm not sure Kenson hates hermetics, though.  Isn't Talon a hermetic?

Talon also fornicates his ally spirit so his views on the world are skewed.

I'm in a purely business relationship with my ally spirit.

No, Talon's ally is the wolf/hawk/motorcycle. He rides his ally, not fornicates. There's a subtle difference, but it's there. It was his ghost mentor ( ... huh... Talon's got a mentor spirit of his dead lover.... wonder what kind of bonuses that gets?) that he wanted to fornicate. Those crazy necrophiliacs.

Oh, and yeah, Talon's a hermetic. IIRC though, the ritual that Talon used to summon gallow was more Wiccan style (although I think any Wiccan would yell at me for saying that using blood in the magic is Wiccan by my understanding of it) than hermetic.
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SL James
post Oct 2 2006, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 2 2006, 03:41 PM)
Yeah, I was gonna say, it came from Stephen Kenson.

I'm not sure Kenson hates hermetics, though.  Isn't Talon a hermetic?

He's about as Hermetic as I am a girl scout.

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Oh, and yeah, Talon's a hermetic. IIRC though, the ritual that Talon used to summon gallow was more Wiccan style (although I think any Wiccan would yell at me for saying that using blood in the magic is Wiccan by my understanding of it) than hermetic.

I would suspect it's closer to pagan than Wiccan.
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