What do people think of Technomancers? Options

[Garrowolf]

I personally think that they were put together strange, but I was wondering what other people thought?

I don't like that they treat sprites as a version of spirits.

It seems to be cheaper and easier to play a hacker but TMs were touted as the wizards of the matrix. I can buy up all the programs I want as a hacker but I have to dump alot of karma for a TM.

I have some house rules for them but I wanted to see what people already thought.

[Jaid]

i like the idea, but the implementation is a little lacking. i mean, don't get me wrong, i kind of enjoy the idea of a character based on conjur... i mean... compiling sprites... but at the same time, it would be nice if the character didn't have to get beaten with a nerf bat first.

[Garrowolf]

ha ha ha Nerf bat?

The other thing was I don't understand why the computer rules have to be so complicated. WHy did they go to an attribute + skill +/- device core mechanic and then drop it for the computer rules?
They did so well on the concept and then fell down on the system.

[Ryu]

You find technomancers strange? How so?

Hackers are cheaper, and should be. Most characters need some matrix skills after all.

What needs to be changed is the low power of TMs at character generation. They are a bit weak at chargen due to lacking complex forms. On the other hand, long term power should be limited, else no system will be safe enough in the long run.

[laughingowl]

Personally:

Matrix is weak in SR4.

The rules do seem to be poorly adapted compared to the rest.

Gun bunny NEEDS high agility and 'skill.

Hacker needs High skill and a realtively small amount of money.


Now TM's all told I like, though do agree they are very weak start (and potentially unstoppable) Submersion grade 4 or so, Resonnance 10 Stealth 10 :-) TM could be killing people why nobody ever sees what is killing them :-)


Short term: Allow TMs to load and use 'programs' (though cant thread, have sprites aid, etc). They obviously will need something to store them on, but can 'run' them on their Living Node. (not DO limit the system for programs just like normal, so loading too much 'software' can slow down task the TM.

Starting out this lets the TM focus their 'gift' in one or two small areas and use 'programs' to fill in the rest. Means nobody else (but a focused hacker) will be their equal at start and allows them to upgrade. and perhaps ultimately do it all 'magically'

Havent worked on a good way to introduce 'caps' since it will be quote a while since any get to the break the game level of problems will wait and see what comes out (offical wise) and/or in playing.

[Garrowolf]

apparently we are thinking alike but on different threads.

[laughingowl]

YEah, only thing we got off on wrong Garrowold (and why I dropped the other) is the taken on 'as wrrtten'

Their are issues with matric (not directlyu related to the other thread) and seriously could use work.

Build/Reapir: Is fine for the 'fixing' occasional making something in a need, but does nto really cover well actually being a craftsperson (my TM with Armorsmith 5 should know) (to make/reapir/upgade drone weaponry)

However: We seem to totally disagree with what the rules are 'as written' although as mentioned I use the rules with the huge 'gm descriotion' caveat and dont really touch the software table at all....... and set my on threshold / interval as needed depending

[FrankTrollman]

Technomancers, as printed, never stop being weak. Ever. The dicepool of the standard "Hacker Adept" will with relatively little Karma and money cap out under the basic game rules at 15 for hacking tests. (That's Skill 6, Improved Ability +3, and a Response 6 Commlink). That's as high as the Hacker Adept can ever get without resorting to improved systems from Unwired which has not been published.

Now the Technomancer is uncapped. Using only the basic rules, her dice pool can go as high as you want to think about. There is literally nothing in the Matrix that could stop a high-end Technomancer (even Sprites ae capped at Rating 8 because higher ratings don't persist long enough to be registered). But wait a minute, how much Karma are we talking? Well... a lot.

A character starts with probably at most 12 Complex Forms. To hack properly you need 18. To match the dicepool of our Hacker Adept we need to raise them all to Rating 9. To do that we need to Submerge ourself three times (42 Karma), actually upgrade Resonance 3 times (72 Karma), and purchase 12 programs from 6 to 9 (288 Karma) and 6 more programs from 0 to 9 (276 Karma). And thats in addition to buying the skill groups up to 6 from 4 like the Hacker Adept has to do (110 Karma). And while we've matched the dicepools, our matrix attributes still blow until we purchase all remaining mental stats up to 6 (probably about 132 Karma).

So yeeah, a Hacker Adept can max out all her Hacking by maximizing two skill groups (110 Karma), upgrading her Commlink (11,000 :nuyen:), and buying up two points of Magic (21 Karma).

So for a mere 920 Karma a Technomancer who does nothing else in her entire life can match what the Hacker Adept can do on less than 150 Karma and a month's rent. After that, the sky is the fucking limit, the Technomancer is completely uncapped.

But you know what? Who gives a fuck? I have never ever seen a game where the players made 1,000 Karma before it was over, so the Technomancer is always going to be playing second fiddle to the Hacker Adept at the only thing she does - Hack. It's sad.

-Frank

[emo samurai]

What I say is that all CF's are automatically at Resonance and that they cost 3 BP at chargen and 5 karma afterwards. That way they rock even while they're barred from having magic or cyberware.

This of course means after 36 BP and 35 karma you have a technomancer with every single fucking program in the game at rating 6 running all the time. Which rules.

[Ophis]

Which don't sound to far off what you can do with a normal hacker...

[Lagomorph]

one of the big problems with TM's is that they need all 4 mental stats to be good since they're what determine the commlinks attributes. No other character type needs 4 high attributes, infact it's difficult to even get that. Most characters will only need 2 high attributes, or 3 if you're filling multiple roles, but 4? it's crazy. I don't even need to break out a BP cost between getting a TM a organic commlink with all 5's and a hacker with a comm at all 6's.

If TM's based their commlink on two attributes, it would make a big difference. Or if TM's added their res to the attribute to make the the commlink it would make some sense. but as written, they're very hard to get much out of.

[blakkie]

[Kyoto Kid]

...TM's are better than their predecessors, The Otaku, since they are not as totally hammered in their physical attributes.

Unfortunately I do not see them as a personal choice for a PC for several reasons:

A large outlay in BPs at Chargen for what you get. 45 BPs goes much farther for a mundane Hacker's starting resources than it does for the TM's Resonance and Technomancer Quality.

The limited number of Complex Forms at Chargen. Yes the TM can thread, but I see it ss akin to Hacking on the Fly which is described as the "Brute Force" method of Matrix access.

TMs are still outclassed in the meat world. since Resonance Attribute is affected by implants. Furthermore, unlike Mages and Adepts, they have no other means of physical compensation such as spells or Adept powers. Hence, I look at them as more of a background character type (or NPC) who most definitely ducks behind the vehicle or Troll Sammie when the lead starts flying.

While they have potentially unlimited advancement, they are also a Karma hog since like mages and adepts, they need to pay for increasing both Submersion grade and Resonance.

[knasser]

I dislike them purely on flavour grounds. I've been told by designers that Technomancers are not "magic" but I have no other way of thinking of someone who interfaces with computers by telepathy.

As I don't want the matrix to be based on / controlled by magic to any extent in my game, then Technomancer's are out of the setting. I don't see it as any kind of loss.

[Jaid]

so ignore resonance loss from essence reduction (not exactly going to overpower them anyways) and make them get a DNI again. problem solved, if your only concern is that they can interface with machines wirelessly...

[hyzmarca]

They have brains that emit electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. What the heck is so unbelievable about that?

[Kyoto Kid]

[mfb]

[De Badd Ass]

TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

Sending a Rating 7 Fault Sprite up against a Hacker is like sending a Force 7 Air Spirit up against a Street Samurai. A starting TM can compile Force 7 Sprites.

Course a starting TM isn't shabby, especially in full-VR with +2 dice on all full-VR matrix tests.

Talk about walking the edge, you need to take a full 35 BP worth of flaws, and spend the max, 50 BP, on CFs. Complex Forms are an absolute bargain at startup compared to everything else (I'm comparing BP costs with Karma costs).

Remember, a TM lives in the matrix - forget real world skills and physical stats. All you need is cracking, electronics, tasking, and perception (OK, I guess even a TM needs negotiation). Fives for the mental stats; twos for the physical.

I made my TM an elf. A dwarf or human TM might be just as good or better.

Make a few runs, earn 13 karma, then overclock: Worp Factor 4!

[emo samurai]

[De Badd Ass]

[De Badd Ass]

[Kyoto Kid]

[De Badd Ass]

[blakkie]