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Garrowolf
I personally think that they were put together strange, but I was wondering what other people thought?

I don't like that they treat sprites as a version of spirits.

It seems to be cheaper and easier to play a hacker but TMs were touted as the wizards of the matrix. I can buy up all the programs I want as a hacker but I have to dump alot of karma for a TM.

I have some house rules for them but I wanted to see what people already thought.
Jaid
i like the idea, but the implementation is a little lacking. i mean, don't get me wrong, i kind of enjoy the idea of a character based on conjur... i mean... compiling sprites... but at the same time, it would be nice if the character didn't have to get beaten with a nerf bat first.
Garrowolf
ha ha ha Nerf bat?

The other thing was I don't understand why the computer rules have to be so complicated. WHy did they go to an attribute + skill +/- device core mechanic and then drop it for the computer rules?
They did so well on the concept and then fell down on the system.
Ryu
You find technomancers strange? How so?

Hackers are cheaper, and should be. Most characters need some matrix skills after all.

What needs to be changed is the low power of TMs at character generation. They are a bit weak at chargen due to lacking complex forms. On the other hand, long term power should be limited, else no system will be safe enough in the long run.
laughingowl
Personally:

Matrix is weak in SR4.

The rules do seem to be poorly adapted compared to the rest.

Gun bunny NEEDS high agility and 'skill.

Hacker needs High skill and a realtively small amount of money.


Now TM's all told I like, though do agree they are very weak start (and potentially unstoppable) Submersion grade 4 or so, Resonnance 10 Stealth 10 smile.gif TM could be killing people why nobody ever sees what is killing them smile.gif


Short term: Allow TMs to load and use 'programs' (though cant thread, have sprites aid, etc). They obviously will need something to store them on, but can 'run' them on their Living Node. (not DO limit the system for programs just like normal, so loading too much 'software' can slow down task the TM.

Starting out this lets the TM focus their 'gift' in one or two small areas and use 'programs' to fill in the rest. Means nobody else (but a focused hacker) will be their equal at start and allows them to upgrade. and perhaps ultimately do it all 'magically'

Havent worked on a good way to introduce 'caps' since it will be quote a while since any get to the break the game level of problems will wait and see what comes out (offical wise) and/or in playing.
Garrowolf
apparently we are thinking alike but on different threads.
laughingowl
YEah, only thing we got off on wrong Garrowold (and why I dropped the other) is the taken on 'as wrrtten'

Their are issues with matric (not directlyu related to the other thread) and seriously could use work.

Build/Reapir: Is fine for the 'fixing' occasional making something in a need, but does nto really cover well actually being a craftsperson (my TM with Armorsmith 5 should know) (to make/reapir/upgade drone weaponry)

However: We seem to totally disagree with what the rules are 'as written' although as mentioned I use the rules with the huge 'gm descriotion' caveat and dont really touch the software table at all....... and set my on threshold / interval as needed depending
FrankTrollman
Technomancers, as printed, never stop being weak. Ever. The dicepool of the standard "Hacker Adept" will with relatively little Karma and money cap out under the basic game rules at 15 for hacking tests. (That's Skill 6, Improved Ability +3, and a Response 6 Commlink). That's as high as the Hacker Adept can ever get without resorting to improved systems from Unwired which has not been published.

Now the Technomancer is uncapped. Using only the basic rules, her dice pool can go as high as you want to think about. There is literally nothing in the Matrix that could stop a high-end Technomancer (even Sprites ae capped at Rating 8 because higher ratings don't persist long enough to be registered). But wait a minute, how much Karma are we talking? Well... a lot.

A character starts with probably at most 12 Complex Forms. To hack properly you need 18. To match the dicepool of our Hacker Adept we need to raise them all to Rating 9. To do that we need to Submerge ourself three times (42 Karma), actually upgrade Resonance 3 times (72 Karma), and purchase 12 programs from 6 to 9 (288 Karma) and 6 more programs from 0 to 9 (276 Karma). And thats in addition to buying the skill groups up to 6 from 4 like the Hacker Adept has to do (110 Karma). And while we've matched the dicepools, our matrix attributes still blow until we purchase all remaining mental stats up to 6 (probably about 132 Karma).

So yeeah, a Hacker Adept can max out all her Hacking by maximizing two skill groups (110 Karma), upgrading her Commlink (11,000 nuyen.gif), and buying up two points of Magic (21 Karma).

So for a mere 920 Karma a Technomancer who does nothing else in her entire life can match what the Hacker Adept can do on less than 150 Karma and a month's rent. After that, the sky is the fucking limit, the Technomancer is completely uncapped.

But you know what? Who gives a fuck? I have never ever seen a game where the players made 1,000 Karma before it was over, so the Technomancer is always going to be playing second fiddle to the Hacker Adept at the only thing she does - Hack. It's sad.

-Frank
emo samurai
What I say is that all CF's are automatically at Resonance and that they cost 3 BP at chargen and 5 karma afterwards. That way they rock even while they're barred from having magic or cyberware.

This of course means after 36 BP and 35 karma you have a technomancer with every single fucking program in the game at rating 6 running all the time. Which rules.
Ophis
Which don't sound to far off what you can do with a normal hacker...
Lagomorph
one of the big problems with TM's is that they need all 4 mental stats to be good since they're what determine the commlinks attributes. No other character type needs 4 high attributes, infact it's difficult to even get that. Most characters will only need 2 high attributes, or 3 if you're filling multiple roles, but 4? it's crazy. I don't even need to break out a BP cost between getting a TM a organic commlink with all 5's and a hacker with a comm at all 6's.

If TM's based their commlink on two attributes, it would make a big difference. Or if TM's added their res to the attribute to make the the commlink it would make some sense. but as written, they're very hard to get much out of.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 4 2006, 10:24 AM)
But you know what? Who gives a fuck? I have never ever seen a game where the players made 1,000 Karma before it was over, so the Technomancer is always going to be playing second fiddle to the Hacker Adept at the only thing she does - Hack. It's sad.

Yup, as written Overclocking is about the only thing that TMs have on mundane hackers. TMs are brutal, brutal karma/BP sinks that generally play second fiddle.

Although I will say that I think a good deal of the problem lies with what an out-of-the-box 400BP mundane hacker can do because of what they are allowed to buy at Chargen.

But I will say I haven't actually played at a table that's had an active TM PC. So maybe there is something I'm missing. Got a player that typically plays a shade on the munchkin side that's going to play one now, so I guess I'll see how it shakes out. Unfortunately the Matrix rules aren't as solid as they could be yet, so what I see might not be entirely applicable if you don't read the wireless rules the same way. We'll have to see how the FAQ shakes out in reguard setting a firmer Matrix rules baseline.
Kyoto Kid
...TM's are better than their predecessors, The Otaku, since they are not as totally hammered in their physical attributes.

Unfortunately I do not see them as a personal choice for a PC for several reasons:

A large outlay in BPs at Chargen for what you get. 45 BPs goes much farther for a mundane Hacker's starting resources than it does for the TM's Resonance and Technomancer Quality.

The limited number of Complex Forms at Chargen. Yes the TM can thread, but I see it ss akin to Hacking on the Fly which is described as the "Brute Force" method of Matrix access.

TMs are still outclassed in the meat world. since Resonance Attribute is affected by implants. Furthermore, unlike Mages and Adepts, they have no other means of physical compensation such as spells or Adept powers. Hence, I look at them as more of a background character type (or NPC) who most definitely ducks behind the vehicle or Troll Sammie when the lead starts flying.

While they have potentially unlimited advancement, they are also a Karma hog since like mages and adepts, they need to pay for increasing both Submersion grade and Resonance.
knasser

I dislike them purely on flavour grounds. I've been told by designers that Technomancers are not "magic" but I have no other way of thinking of someone who interfaces with computers by telepathy.

As I don't want the matrix to be based on / controlled by magic to any extent in my game, then Technomancer's are out of the setting. I don't see it as any kind of loss.
Jaid
so ignore resonance loss from essence reduction (not exactly going to overpower them anyways) and make them get a DNI again. problem solved, if your only concern is that they can interface with machines wirelessly...
hyzmarca
They have brains that emit electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. What the heck is so unbelievable about that?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jaid)
so ignore resonance loss from essence reduction (not exactly going to overpower them anyways) and make them get a DNI again. problem solved, if your only concern is that they can interface with machines wirelessly...

..nice houserule if I am the GM, doesn't work if I'm the player in someone else's campaign.
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
They have brains that emit electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. What the heck is so unbelievable about that?

*froth spittle hate*
De Badd Ass
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

Sending a Rating 7 Fault Sprite up against a Hacker is like sending a Force 7 Air Spirit up against a Street Samurai. A starting TM can compile Force 7 Sprites.

Course a starting TM isn't shabby, especially in full-VR with +2 dice on all full-VR matrix tests.

Talk about walking the edge, you need to take a full 35 BP worth of flaws, and spend the max, 50 BP, on CFs. Complex Forms are an absolute bargain at startup compared to everything else (I'm comparing BP costs with Karma costs).

Remember, a TM lives in the matrix - forget real world skills and physical stats. All you need is cracking, electronics, tasking, and perception (OK, I guess even a TM needs negotiation). Fives for the mental stats; twos for the physical.

I made my TM an elf. A dwarf or human TM might be just as good or better.

Make a few runs, earn 13 karma, then overclock: Worp Factor 4!

emo samurai
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
They have brains that emit electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. What the heck is so unbelievable about that?

*froth spittle hate*

You didn't like your character, I assume?
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
I don't even need to break out a BP cost between getting a TM a organic commlink with all 5's and a hacker with a comm at all 6's.

How does a hacker start "with a comm at all 6's"? Availability 12 limits starting response to 5.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
They have brains that emit electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. What the heck is so unbelievable about that?

<joking>
Magic is one thing; science fiction is a horse of a different color. Not everybody wants to ride that pony. Are you sure you want to bring science fiction into Shadowrun? Next you'll want D20 modern and OGL....
</joking>
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

...I'm more concerned about taking physical damage from the Sammy or Mage that has 2 - 3 extra IPs on me in MR ("Meat Reality").
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

...I'm more concerned about taking physical damage from the Sammy or Mage that has 2 - 3 extra IPs on me in MR ("Meat Reality").

They gotta find you first, and to do that they have to be a better hacker than you - unless you hand out business cards with your home address.

You weren't planning on leaving home, were you?
blakkie
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

...I'm more concerned about taking physical damage from the Sammy or Mage that has 2 - 3 extra IPs on me in MR ("Meat Reality").

Then you haven't meet up with the TM's Dobermans yet? :/
mfb
QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI)
You didn't like your character, I assume?

excepting the fact that he's got a damn radio brain, i like him just fine.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI)
You didn't like your character, I assume?

excepting the fact that he's got a damn radio brain, i like him just fine.

Don't curse the radio, change the channel wink.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 4 2006, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

...I'm more concerned about taking physical damage from the Sammy or Mage that has 2 - 3 extra IPs on me in MR ("Meat Reality").

They gotta find you first, and to do that they have to be a better hacker than you - unless you hand out business cards with your home address.

You weren't planning on leaving home, were you?

...but what fun is playing a character who just sits at home while the rest of the team is out there kicking booty. This is why I think TMs make better NPCs than PCs.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 4 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
TMs Rule and Sprites ROCK!!! The trick is, you gotta gotta walk the edge fearlessly. If you aren't willing to risk and take Physical Damage from Fading, then buy a commlink.

...I'm more concerned about taking physical damage from the Sammy or Mage that has 2 - 3 extra IPs on me in MR ("Meat Reality").

Then you haven't meet up with the TM's Dobermans yet? :/

...unless the TM has a control rig (thus sacrificing Resonance), the Dobermans can only rely on their Pilot rating. A couple of well placed airburst HE grenades (or an electrical based attack) should take care of them.
blakkie
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 4 2006, 11:04 PM)
QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI)
You didn't like your character, I assume?

excepting the fact that he's got a damn radio brain, i like him just fine.

Don't curse the radio, change the channel wink.gif

Well if people would stop turning the dial back....yes I'm looking at you hyzmarca! wink.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 4 2006, 09:35 PM)
...unless the TM has a control rig (thus sacrificing Resonance), the Dobermans can only rely on their Pilot rating.

That's an interesting interpretation of the admitedly vague rules. I, and many others, read it as they (and mundane riggers for that matter) can still jump in but they don't get the +2 die bonus of the Control Rig. Perhaps something for the impending FAQ?

But given that Resonance has very little to do how well they shoot, having the TM forced into that trade-off would do little to help you when the Dogs of War come looking for you. smile.gif
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 4 2006, 11:41 PM)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 4 2006, 09:35 PM)
...unless the TM has a control rig (thus sacrificing Resonance), the Dobermans can only rely on their Pilot rating.

That's an interesting interpretation of the admitedly vague rules. I, and many others, read it as they (and mundane riggers for that matter) can still jump in but they don't get the +2 die bonus of the Control Rig. Perhaps something for the impending FAQ?

But given that Resonance has very little to do how well they shoot, having the TM forced into that trade-off would do little to help you when the Dogs of War come looking for you. smile.gif

Dobermans. (plural) That was my TMs main weakness. With only 4 BPs dedicated to gear, he could only afford ONE doberman.

I admit the rules are vague, and that's a good thing. Otherwise, the GM might have objected to my version of matrix possession. Possession - that's where my Rating 7 machine sprite "possesses" my Doberman. That's the equivalent of a Doberman with a Rating 7 Pilot. Who needs a control rig?

Kyoto Kid is right! You can't have fun sitting at home. If that were possible, then Adepts would have Astral Projection, and Shadowrun would be an online game. (Clearly, anyone who thinks Dumpshock is fun must be clueless wink.gif)
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
Kyoto Kid is right! You can't have fun sitting at home. If that were possible, then Adepts would have Astral Projection, and Shadowrun would be an online game. (Clearly, anyone who thinks Dumpshock is fun must be clueless wink.gif)

...which is why I dislike playing online games. Yes the fourm is great for discussion, but I'd rather be sitting around a table with a bunch of my mates, drinking beer, eating crappy pizza, rolling fistfulls of dice to blow (or hack) the snot out of the oppos, and actually interacting with the other characters (both PC & NPC).

[addendum]
I actually wrote up one TM character (Akima) who is as good as a TM can be, but since most smart corps will have counter measures to defeat wireless access from outside, she is basically useless. On the other hand Violet, my Hacker and Inventrix supreme character not only has the requisite matrix skills (and a kick butt custom commlink & programme suite) but she also has excellent B & E, Technical and appropritate knowledge skills, along with a decent infiltration & combat ability (which Akima doesn't have because of the BP investment in her Resonance and Complex Forms and lack of augmentation). Theoretically, Akima could become a matrix godddess & leave Violet in the "digital dust", but she has to survive a LOT of runs to get there.
emo samurai
To a technomancer, VR IS MR. Hacking over the radio is as good as fighting in person to a TM.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI)
To a technomancer, VR IS MR. Hacking over the radio is as good as fighting in person to a TM.

...however, if a TM is on a run in the matrix and an HTR unit responds (which will have at least acouple of augmented members) a TM doesn't stand a chance with only 1 IP when the lead starts flying. If the opps have a sec hacker, skinlinks on their weapons feed and/or a tech who sets up a jamming field backing them up the TM will more than have their hands full while the sec team turns them into soyswiss cheese.
Garrowolf
That is why I declared TMs as secondary characters which can only be played if the player has a primary character as well. This way I don't have to worry about a player getting bored and the player is a GM so he's used to having multiple characters anyway.
Kyoto Kid
...that is nice you allow a second character in such an instance. Unless we have a very small group (say, 2 players), I have rarely been able to run more than one character in a given session.
Garrowolf
Well I want the PCs to have more then just a combat type character but I don't want to screw them over. Not every player can handle it so it's not forced on anyone. I'll also use this if I have a player that has a tendency to play secondary characters. That way they can still be supportive of others and get it out of his system but still have a fighter type that can kick ass.

In one game I ended up running a Technomancer and a Combat Mage because we were new to the system and we didn't want a certain player bogging down the game trying to figure out either of these rules sets. We just told him that both were covered and he should get a sammy or something similar. The GM figured I could handle it and wouldn't abuse the game.
Cold-Dragon
ignore me. I read the first page and replied on that. ^-^:
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Well I want the PCs to have more then just a combat type character but I don't want to screw them over. Not every player can handle it so it's not forced on anyone. I'll also use this if I have a player that has a tendency to play secondary characters. That way they can still be supportive of others and get it out of his system but still have a fighter type that can kick ass.

In one game I ended up running a Technomancer and a Combat Mage because we were new to the system and we didn't want a certain player bogging down the game trying to figure out either of these rules sets. We just told him that both were covered and he should get a sammy or something similar. The GM figured I could handle it and wouldn't abuse the game.

...I like this concept. Too bad you are not (or are you?) in the same city I live in [Portland OR - er TT]. You sound like someone who would do well in the 2.1 playtest of my Rhapsody arc (the only thing is it is in SR3 since it occurs before 2070 and SR4 still needs more source material for really setting up a detailed campaign)
Garrowolf
well I'm in Georgia so no dice (pun intended!). I appreciate it though

I could see the game earlier then 2070 still in SR4. I like the system better and it would give more of an opportunity to convert stuff.
Actually I'm working on a few other conversions. I've got a lower tech space game with shadowrun in space and I was thinking about doing Earthdawn in SR4 as well. I think that with a few (read several) house rules it could work in nearly any setting.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
ignore me. I read the first page and replied on that. ^-^:

He He

As I was saying... Sprites Kick Ass in the Matrix. That's what I think of TMs.


BTW: I couldn't find your reply on the any page.
blakkie
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
Kyoto Kid is right! You can't have fun sitting at home. If that were possible, then Adepts would have Astral Projection, and Shadowrun would be an online game. (Clearly, anyone who thinks Dumpshock is fun must be clueless wink.gif)

Umm, why would you stay at home??? I sure never said anything about staying at home.
De Badd Ass
HOME, office, vehicle, safehouse, bodyguard - it's all the same.

Kyoto Kid implied that the only fun to be had in Shadowrun is in kicking sammi ass. I'm agreeing that people who feel that way should not play TMs. Other posters have suggested that people who feel that way should not play with people who play TMs. They suggest that if the only fun to be had in your game is in kicking sammi ass then TMs should only be NPCs.

I would like to suggest that people who only have fun kicking sammi ass... but I won't go there.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
well I'm in Georgia so no dice (pun intended!). I appreciate it though

I could see the game earlier then 2070 still in SR4. I like the system better and it would give more of an opportunity to convert stuff. 
Actually I'm working on a few other conversions. I've got a lower tech space game with shadowrun in space and I was thinking about doing Earthdawn in SR4 as well. I think that with a few (read several) house rules it could work in nearly any setting.

...ahh. Had to try, am in recruitment mode for the next playtest.

BTW, I also have a campaign arc in the (wings so to say) that deals with running offworld. As I mentioned in another post, I have designed a lot of new tech, orbital, and even a lunar based installation. I also have written what I affectionately call my Neo Anarchists Guide to Real Space (this was well before Target Wastelands was released. Had a lot of "do's & don'ts" for the first time spacer.

I also had experimented with adapting the SR3 game engine to a futuristic space campaign that doesn't even have a tie in to the SR metaplot. With the Build Point system from The Shadowrun Companion, I could remove magic from the system without having an "empty" priority slot. Another feature was I did not include was Psionics which I always thought was a half baked attempt by most other space games (save for the original Traveller) to bring some form of "magic" & mysticism into the "Final Frontier".

Haven't yet considered adapting SR4, again because of the the source material "vacuum" (pun also intended) to base new tech on.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I could see the game earlier then 2070 still in SR4. I like the system better and it would give more of an opportunity to convert stuff.
Actually I'm working on a few other conversions. I've got a lower tech space game with shadowrun in space and I was thinking about doing Earthdawn in SR4 as well. I think that with a few (read several) house rules it could work in nearly any setting.


Certainly it works for the new World of Darkness. Somewhat better than nWoD's actual rules even. The basic dice pools are about the same size (Attribute + Skill), the basic die generates the same number of average hits (1/3 per die for a d10 w/ 10 again or a d6 looking for 5s), and the numbers are even about the same size (bystanders have a Strength of 2).

In fact, the only places where the backbone of the game system is different, SR4 is pretty thoroughly superior. 9 again is a broken rule, SR4 Edge works better than nWoD Willpower, and SR4's defense check followed by a soak roll is a much better system than nWoD's unified attack and damage roll. I'd like there to be a difference between a rifle and a rocket launcher, just as I'd like to be able to drop people with one attack occassionally.

But while SR4 mechanics are in general much more balanced and playable than nWoD's, there's a lot more source material for nWoD. A Vampire: the Shadowrun campaign takes like 5 minutes to convert and works substantively better than playing nWoD right out of the books. Using the Shadowrun BBB and the Vampire book together makes more sense than using Vampire with the nWoD core book.

-Frank
Perssek
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
I also had experimented with adapting the SR3 game engine to a futuristic space campaign that doesn't even have a tie in to the SR metaplot. With the Build Point system from The Shadowrun Companion, I could remove magic from the system without having an "empty" priority slot.


Did something similar myself. Some of my players wanted to Star Wars, but didnīt want the (in their opinion) "D20 aberration" or the WEG D6 system (which we played a lot in the past). They wanted it to be GURPS (which we play almost all the time, when weīre not shadowrunning) or the SR4 system.

So SR4 it was. I quickly adapted my Character Creation Guide (a summary I made of the main characters itens - like skills, attributes, qualities, costs, etc.) into Star Wars.

Basically, I removed the magic and ressonance attributes, adapted some of the skills, introduced others, erased some and finally, created some new qualities to match the campaign and background needs. Oh, and some rules for using the Force.

Itīs not done yet - still have to work in some vehicle stats, but the character part is ready.

I feel the SR4 system is very adaptable, being perfect to high-action games in which multiple non-humam races can exist, tech pays a big part and there are "strange" powers. You can edit our of it anything you donīt want.
Kyoto Kid
...Since I spent quite a bit of time adapting SR3, including expanding on the vehicle construction rules in Rigger3 to encompass spacecraft, Weapon design in Cannon Companion, and computer design in Matrix, I find myself reluctant to ditch all that work and switch over to SR4 at this time. The BBB just doesn't have enough to go on and (like a few of others on this board), I have a pretty demanding RL outside of gaming.

For characters, I agree, the SR4 core rules work pretty good. However there need to be more templates as well as custom design frameworks in order to really build a good setting.
De Badd Ass
Shameless attempt to steer thread back on topic:

TMs will really rock once the rules for Ally Sprites come out.
Eyeless Blond
Hm, and some sort of Threading foci to remove the sustainning penalty for threading a complex form. nyahnyah.gif
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