Full Version: What do people think of Technomancers?
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
Hm, and some sort of Threading foci to remove the sustainning penalty for threading a complex form.  |
that would help tremendously.
in fact, i would go so far as to say that would make TMs playable.
I hate Technomancers!
But then again, I wasn't too fond of Otaku either, so make of that what you will.
But then again, I wasn't too fond of Otaku either, so make of that what you will.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Hm, and some sort of Threading foci to remove the sustainning penalty for threading a complex form. |
Foci - Don't go there!
OTOH: A sprite can do that.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Oct 6 2006, 10:15 PM) |
| Hm, and some sort of Threading foci to remove the sustainning penalty for threading a complex form. |
Maybe we could call them "sprites." =)
EDIT: D'oh. Missed the fact that De Bad Ass beat me to the punch(line).
yes, but sprites in and of themselves cause drain also. and have limited services.
plus, all the sprites you have should pretty much be dedicated to using their crazy sprite abilities to much more amazing things =P
plus, all the sprites you have should pretty much be dedicated to using their crazy sprite abilities to much more amazing things =P
CHeck out my wireless world post for fixes to most of the problems with Technomancers!
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||||||
...unless the TM has a control rig (thus sacrificing Resonance), the Dobermans can only rely on their Pilot rating. A couple of well placed airburst HE grenades (or an electrical based attack) should take care of them. |
Why doesn't the TM just have a sprite inhabit the doberman, and give it a ton of extra dice?
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...but what fun is playing a character who just sits at home while the rest of the team is out there kicking booty. This is why I think TMs make better NPCs than PCs. |
I had a character who pretty much played his hacker as the laughing man from GITS.
It can be amazingly fun to never actually go anywhere!
A few things people forget when they criticize the use of Technomancers...
Threading. While the TM might not start with as many complex forms as a hacker can buy programs... with threading the TM can create any program set on the planet. Also - with Threading - a TM can overcharge a CF higher than any program rating you can buy.
Don't forget, registered Sprites don't disappear after 8 hours.. giving you an ally in the Matrix - so to speak...
Threading. While the TM might not start with as many complex forms as a hacker can buy programs... with threading the TM can create any program set on the planet. Also - with Threading - a TM can overcharge a CF higher than any program rating you can buy.
Don't forget, registered Sprites don't disappear after 8 hours.. giving you an ally in the Matrix - so to speak...
I don't think they're underpowered ... I just think they suck!
Threading question... How long does it take to thread a program???
Nowhere in the book does it say what type of an action it is to thread a Complex form? Do we assume free action, or a non-action? What type of an action would be most appropriate for creating a Complex Form on the fly?
Nowhere in the book does it say what type of an action it is to thread a Complex form? Do we assume free action, or a non-action? What type of an action would be most appropriate for creating a Complex Form on the fly?
I would rule it a Complex action due to the fact that you are flexing your mental muscles to Thread your form, either moding one you already have or creating one from scratch. Though, I also would deem it a free action to summon one of your registered sprites to sustain it for you.
House Rule Idea for Technomancers-
Perhaps give Technomancers some free points to spend on Complex Forms, Adepts get their Magic worth of Adept Points, so why shouldn't Technomancers get some free points?
Especially since they have the whole 5 Attributes they are putting points into:
Resonance, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Willpower. Perhaps if they were given Res * Log/Int? Or even just let them use their Knowledge free points towards Complex Forms. This would help offset the initial BP drain, but wouldn't really alleviate the in game drain.
---------
Base Technomancer Cost:
Res, Cha, Int, Log, Wil of 5: 200 pts
Technomancer Quality: 5 pts
Electronics, Cracking, Tasking Groups of 4: 120 pts
10 Complex Forms of 5: 50 pts
Total: 375 pts
Couple of things not included: Having other attributes higher than 1, Natural Hardening (Almost essential)
Perhaps give Technomancers some free points to spend on Complex Forms, Adepts get their Magic worth of Adept Points, so why shouldn't Technomancers get some free points?
Especially since they have the whole 5 Attributes they are putting points into:
Resonance, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Willpower. Perhaps if they were given Res * Log/Int? Or even just let them use their Knowledge free points towards Complex Forms. This would help offset the initial BP drain, but wouldn't really alleviate the in game drain.
---------
Base Technomancer Cost:
Res, Cha, Int, Log, Wil of 5: 200 pts
Technomancer Quality: 5 pts
Electronics, Cracking, Tasking Groups of 4: 120 pts
10 Complex Forms of 5: 50 pts
Total: 375 pts
Couple of things not included: Having other attributes higher than 1, Natural Hardening (Almost essential)
| QUOTE (Nightwalker450) |
| House Rule Idea for Technomancers- Perhaps give Technomancers some free points to spend on Complex Forms, Adepts get their Magic worth of Adept Points, so why shouldn't Technomancers get some free points? Especially since they have the whole 5 Attributes they are putting points into: Resonance, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Willpower. Perhaps if they were given Res * Log/Int? Or even just let them use their Knowledge free points towards Complex Forms. This would help offset the initial BP drain, but wouldn't really alleviate the in game drain. --------- Base Technomancer Cost: Res, Cha, Int, Log, Wil of 5: 200 pts Technomancer Quality: 5 pts Electronics, Cracking, Tasking Groups of 4: 120 pts 10 Complex Forms of 5: 50 pts Total: 375 pts Couple of things not included: Having other attributes higher than 1, Natural Hardening (Almost essential) |
I wouldn't mind seeing Resonance times whatever in free Complex Action levels, with BP/Karma spent on the remaining points. However, one thing to consider with TMs is that, while hackers have to spend IPs swapping programs (dangerous in combat or when IC is sniffing for you), TMs can use them all the time.
Of course, I don't think that's worth the crippling, but whatever.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that Technomancers arn't supposed to be played 'just' like hackers, like adepts arnt played just like Sams.
Your main power outlet will not be your CF's early on, but your ability to compile sprites on the fly and hack into a system while still operating in the physical realm. If you want to, you can specialise your TM with one or two CFs at rank 5-6 at the start, like stealth, and then thread them up to high ranks, up to 9-10. For the most part though, you just need a spread of rank 2-3 CFs so your TM can operate normally.
If you need access to a node, compile a rank 6 sprite with decrypt and edit optional CFs to hack the node to admin level and then create an admin accound for you to log in with. Then either do things manually yourself or compile a data sprite to search for the information you need.
For registering sprites, I would just recommend registering some Fault and Machine sprites for combat and assisting your real world actions. In combat, you dont want to slug it out with IC, you need to flood the node with 2-3 Fault sprites and beat it into the ground quickly. Note that there is no limit to the ammount of registered sprites that can be active, just the limit on unregistered sprites, IE you can only have one.
Ive hacked into someone's commlink while talking directly with them by taking a 3 second pause to create a Crack sprite and send it to attack his commlink. The other PC doesnt even know that I've hacked his comm since I didnt go VR at any point. Hacking through AR is still hard to cover up since you have that 'out there' look while you concentrate on your AR vision.
Just have your character take a deep breath with his eyes closed to cover your compiling attempt, and the other party will never notice you just snagged a secret admin account on their comm.
Your main power outlet will not be your CF's early on, but your ability to compile sprites on the fly and hack into a system while still operating in the physical realm. If you want to, you can specialise your TM with one or two CFs at rank 5-6 at the start, like stealth, and then thread them up to high ranks, up to 9-10. For the most part though, you just need a spread of rank 2-3 CFs so your TM can operate normally.
If you need access to a node, compile a rank 6 sprite with decrypt and edit optional CFs to hack the node to admin level and then create an admin accound for you to log in with. Then either do things manually yourself or compile a data sprite to search for the information you need.
For registering sprites, I would just recommend registering some Fault and Machine sprites for combat and assisting your real world actions. In combat, you dont want to slug it out with IC, you need to flood the node with 2-3 Fault sprites and beat it into the ground quickly. Note that there is no limit to the ammount of registered sprites that can be active, just the limit on unregistered sprites, IE you can only have one.
Ive hacked into someone's commlink while talking directly with them by taking a 3 second pause to create a Crack sprite and send it to attack his commlink. The other PC doesnt even know that I've hacked his comm since I didnt go VR at any point. Hacking through AR is still hard to cover up since you have that 'out there' look while you concentrate on your AR vision.
Just have your character take a deep breath with his eyes closed to cover your compiling attempt, and the other party will never notice you just snagged a secret admin account on their comm.
Number of sprites is limited by your charisma, same as spirits for mages.
Registering Sprites p. 235,
"A registered sprite will not fade away after 8 hours, but will remain available to the technomancer until all of its tasks are used. A technomancer may have a number of registered sprites equal to his Charisma. Any attempt to register a sprite beyond this maximum automatically fails."
Registering Sprites p. 235,
"A registered sprite will not fade away after 8 hours, but will remain available to the technomancer until all of its tasks are used. A technomancer may have a number of registered sprites equal to his Charisma. Any attempt to register a sprite beyond this maximum automatically fails."
they're mages, only difference is that they summon in the matrix instead of astral. same thing different domain
I meant out and active at once.
| QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Oct 31 2006, 06:39 AM) |
| Base Technomancer Cost: Res, Cha, Int, Log, Wil of 5: 200 pts Technomancer Quality: 5 pts Electronics, Cracking, Tasking Groups of 4: 120 pts 10 Complex Forms of 5: 50 pts Total: 375 pts Couple of things not included: Having other attributes higher than 1, Natural Hardening (Almost essential) |
I think it's only natural for you to complain if you consider the minimum needed for a "Base" Technomancer to be five Attributes at 5, and three Skill Groups at 4, which is considered to be better than professional level.
this is to be competitive with a hacker. hackers are going to start with a commlink that is response 5, system/firewall of 6 (probably, may as well just get ready for when you do have that response 6), and a bunch of programs at 5 (or 6, but effectively 5), which requires that you have resonance 5. that being said, even if you drop a couple of those stats to 4, and spend your BP a little more carefully on the skill groups, you're still looking at spending a ton more than any hacker.
i'd have to say the best change you can make from the TM's perspective is to use attribute + skill for hacking/computer use, and have the programs cap successes. which means they actually don't *need* to have straight rating 5 CFs. if you use that house rule, then i would say TMs are about equal, or at least close to it.
i'd have to say the best change you can make from the TM's perspective is to use attribute + skill for hacking/computer use, and have the programs cap successes. which means they actually don't *need* to have straight rating 5 CFs. if you use that house rule, then i would say TMs are about equal, or at least close to it.
Well I changed the TMs to be super hackers instead of Adept Hackers. They can use any normal programs but they add complex forms ON TOP of them. The complex forms are limted to Resonance /2 round up and the programs are limited to programs that they create so they are running around with programs + complex forms on average of 7+.
They create sprites the same way. They take an agent program and add a complex form to that. Except that they have to pay for the rating of the agent and the complex form added together.
There are no services or time limit on sprites so they will hang around forever just like agents but they have their complex form level as their intuition and charisma. They act a lot more like pets then anything else. You are limited on the number of sprites you can have though.
TMs can use a commlink just like anyone else and I threw away the stuff about them having a different version of the computer skills and not being able to teach.
I made them powerful but focused and rare. I don't use hackers as PCs, just as NPCs but I do use TMs.
They are no longer Karma sinks just to function and they will give most hackers a big run for their money.
They create sprites the same way. They take an agent program and add a complex form to that. Except that they have to pay for the rating of the agent and the complex form added together.
There are no services or time limit on sprites so they will hang around forever just like agents but they have their complex form level as their intuition and charisma. They act a lot more like pets then anything else. You are limited on the number of sprites you can have though.
TMs can use a commlink just like anyone else and I threw away the stuff about them having a different version of the computer skills and not being able to teach.
I made them powerful but focused and rare. I don't use hackers as PCs, just as NPCs but I do use TMs.
They are no longer Karma sinks just to function and they will give most hackers a big run for their money.
Damn... Thats just too powerfull Garrowolf...
I'm running by the book and I'm wiping the floor with the rest of my teams commlinks... (Long storey, read about it in "Up from the Bottom")
You just need to play smart with what you have, and protect your health, cause its your weakest point.
I'm running by the book and I'm wiping the floor with the rest of my teams commlinks... (Long storey, read about it in "Up from the Bottom")
You just need to play smart with what you have, and protect your health, cause its your weakest point.
where is "Up from the Bottom?"
Well I wanted a character type to excel at the hacking stuff to such a degree that I wouldn't have to wait around for them to deal with long hacks.
Besides I don't think that they should be balenced against other character types. They should excel in their field. In the same vein I don't think that a non magic user should stand up for long against a magic user (unless you kill them quick). I don't think that a non combat character should stand up long to a combat character.
I tend to think in terms of specialists in Shadowrun. You are elite at what you do best. You are not elite at everything. I hate jack of all trades characters much more then min maxers (actually I consider them the worst kind), because I want everyone to have their focus that they can shine at. If you have someone who covers the other people's specialties too much then you have the others siting around wondering why they are there.
I know that goes against a lot of standard shadowrun character types but it is my pet pieve. Most of my rules changes are designed to not allow much overlap. In their field they can be very powerful but against each other they should be screwed in one way or another. That is why they need each other.
Sorry if I'm ranting a bit.
Well I wanted a character type to excel at the hacking stuff to such a degree that I wouldn't have to wait around for them to deal with long hacks.
Besides I don't think that they should be balenced against other character types. They should excel in their field. In the same vein I don't think that a non magic user should stand up for long against a magic user (unless you kill them quick). I don't think that a non combat character should stand up long to a combat character.
I tend to think in terms of specialists in Shadowrun. You are elite at what you do best. You are not elite at everything. I hate jack of all trades characters much more then min maxers (actually I consider them the worst kind), because I want everyone to have their focus that they can shine at. If you have someone who covers the other people's specialties too much then you have the others siting around wondering why they are there.
I know that goes against a lot of standard shadowrun character types but it is my pet pieve. Most of my rules changes are designed to not allow much overlap. In their field they can be very powerful but against each other they should be screwed in one way or another. That is why they need each other.
Sorry if I'm ranting a bit.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
Certainly it works for the new World of Darkness. Somewhat better than nWoD's actual rules even. The basic dice pools are about the same size (Attribute + Skill), the basic die generates the same number of average hits (1/3 per die for a d10 w/ 10 again or a d6 looking for 5s), and the numbers are even about the same size (bystanders have a Strength of 2). In fact, the only places where the backbone of the game system is different, SR4 is pretty thoroughly superior. 9 again is a broken rule, SR4 Edge works better than nWoD Willpower, and SR4's defense check followed by a soak roll is a much better system than nWoD's unified attack and damage roll. I'd like there to be a difference between a rifle and a rocket launcher, just as I'd like to be able to drop people with one attack occassionally. But while SR4 mechanics are in general much more balanced and playable than nWoD's, there's a lot more source material for nWoD. A Vampire: the Shadowrun campaign takes like 5 minutes to convert and works substantively better than playing nWoD right out of the books. Using the Shadowrun BBB and the Vampire book together makes more sense than using Vampire with the nWoD core book. -Frank |
Sometimes you scare me. In a good way.
Ok you can continue now.
The current game I am running involves a cross over with Angel, Call of Cthulhu, Constantine, Poltergeist the Legacy, Earthdawn, and some World of Darkness (I hate SR Vamps) in Shadowrun. I'm just taking elements from these - not one setting versus another.
The story is basically about a group of people who had been studying the paranormal (the Legacy) from before the awakening. Once the awakening occured they tried to stop some of the worst types but ended up dead for their troubles. They have passed the Legacy house and their mission on to their decendants whom several are shadowrunners.
The runners have normal runs in order to maintain the resources to fight the things that they have discovered.
They found out that there is an invasion of minor and major demons that is preparing the way for and opening gates for the Horrors. What makes things more interesting is that there has been a civil war amoung the demons and they are pushing refugees before their rush.
Some of the Demons are helpful to the Legacy group and others are minions of the Wraithlords and Wolfram and Hart. People can't see them as demons because they are protected by Shadow, ala Constantine. They just see the closest metahuman type to what they look like.
They are having to race to close gates at hot spots and find magic from the fourth age to stop their incursions all the while taking normal shadowruns in order to keep their quest going.
They are trying to find allies but most people either don't believe them or are affraid to help.
Will they win or will the city fall?
The story is basically about a group of people who had been studying the paranormal (the Legacy) from before the awakening. Once the awakening occured they tried to stop some of the worst types but ended up dead for their troubles. They have passed the Legacy house and their mission on to their decendants whom several are shadowrunners.
The runners have normal runs in order to maintain the resources to fight the things that they have discovered.
They found out that there is an invasion of minor and major demons that is preparing the way for and opening gates for the Horrors. What makes things more interesting is that there has been a civil war amoung the demons and they are pushing refugees before their rush.
Some of the Demons are helpful to the Legacy group and others are minions of the Wraithlords and Wolfram and Hart. People can't see them as demons because they are protected by Shadow, ala Constantine. They just see the closest metahuman type to what they look like.
They are having to race to close gates at hot spots and find magic from the fourth age to stop their incursions all the while taking normal shadowruns in order to keep their quest going.
They are trying to find allies but most people either don't believe them or are affraid to help.
Will they win or will the city fall?
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