 Guns 101, Confused... |
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 Oct 7 2006, 07:49 AM
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#126
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
<REDACTED>
~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:53 AM
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#127
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i guess. i just don't see how that's really relevant to... anything at all, to be honest. i mean, shoes are tools for protecting your feet. but foot protection is not at the forefront of many shoe-owners' minds when they buy a new pair. what something is designed to do is generally less important than what people actually use it for. the reason for this is exemplified by the responses in this thread to your statement, Kagetenshi: you say guns are tools for killing, and people assume you mean that guns are evil--that people who own guns are killers. even after you stated your opinion on gun ownership, some people were still confused as to what you actually meant. so... yeah, guns are tools designed for killing. so what? what's the benefit of keeping this fact in mind? i'm not saying people should try to forget or ignore the basic purpose a gun is designed for. but waving that purpose around for its own sake doesn't seem to accomplish anything useful. if there's a purpose to it that i've missed, speak up, and i'll discuss it or reject it or accept it or whatever. but as it stands, it seems like keeping it specifically in mind will just cause problems. |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:57 AM
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#128
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
There was a point earlier where it was claimed (or I thought it was claimed, I'm too tired at this point to make unqualified statements) that that was not the case. I corrected that, because I really really hate letting incorrect things stand.
Then, as far as I can tell, that got summarized as "guns are bad", which really pissed me off. I'm not really interested in having this debate again, but I am far less interested in letting "summaries" that boil down to mostly the opposite of what I said stand. Edit: wait, no, originally I jumped in because of an unfair comparison—a belief that could be clearly demonstrated false through simple examination of nature, and a belief that could not be clearly demonstrated false by simple examination of nature. Then it boiled out of control, as is wont to happen. ~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:59 AM
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#129
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, i get that. one of the disadvantages of the forum system: one missed spot check, and you're off-topic for years trying to clarify your statements.
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Oct 7 2006, 08:03 AM
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#130
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I made my Spot checks, and my Will saves to keep from being drawn into the conversation. I roll twenties, bitch.
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Oct 7 2006, 08:06 AM
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#131
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and yet you post!
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Oct 7 2006, 08:33 AM
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#132
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Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 21-September 06 Member No.: 9,450 |
:notworthy: :grinbig: |
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Oct 7 2006, 08:58 AM
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#133
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Ahh, but I didn't post as part of the guns-are-bad/guns-are-good conversation. I just posted to call you a bitch, which is always on topic.
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Oct 7 2006, 06:06 PM
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#134
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
damn your vulcan logic!
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Oct 7 2006, 06:17 PM
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#135
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Vulcan logic? The Vulcan is a minigun, isn't it?
I wouldn't exactly call it logic then, but I can see how it supersedes logic :cyber:. |
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Oct 7 2006, 06:35 PM
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#136
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
For the record, my opinion is that guns are tools designed to push a projectile downrange, at extremely high velocities. It's where you point it that matters...
Again, I point out the example of firearms designed specifically for sporting purposes, such as Olympic target rifles. How many people do you suppose have been killed with an Olympic target rifle? Would you still consider this rifle to be a "tool for killing", rather than a "tool for recreation"? Almost any tool available can be used as a lethal weapon, if so desired. How does one determine the fine line between a tool and weapon? Where do knives, axes, and clubs fit in? I'm still of the opinion that these are ALL tools, including firearms. Just because a tool functions well as a weapon doesn't mean that it's only purpose in life is to be used as a weapon. |
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Oct 7 2006, 06:37 PM
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#137
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
The mind is willing, but the flesh is weak... :wobble: |
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Oct 7 2006, 06:42 PM
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#138
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Well the Detroit River (as we call it) is really a strait between Detroit in the U.S. and Widsor in Ontario. Fort Detroit (which later became the City of Detroit) was founded by Antione Cadillac, a French explorer. There were quite a few french explorers and fur trappers in the Mighigan area before the French-Indian War. After that the British took over. We still have lgacies of the french era in may of our place-names. Cadillac, Pontiac, Grosse Isle, Sault Sainte Marie, the Rouge River, Belle Isle, and many others Interestingly enough, the oldest streets in Detroit follow a raidial pattern, which I understand is typically French, as oppossed to a grid. |
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Oct 7 2006, 06:54 PM
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#139
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
IIRC, radial patterns just reflect old roadway designs—Boston is pretty radial, but not that French.
~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:14 PM
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#140
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Guns evolved into recreational items after being used as items to kill/injure living entities -- hunting and warfare come to mind. I sincerely doubt the first people to use a gun said "Hey! This thing uses projectile force greater than an arrow to push small objects through mass! Let's see how well we can hit that painted-up box over there!" Most likely it was "...Wow. Hey, a bear!" |
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Oct 7 2006, 09:39 PM
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#141
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I wouldn't be too sure about that. You never know with those wacky Chinese. |
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Oct 7 2006, 10:57 PM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 498 Joined: 31-May 02 From: All the way in the Back to the Left. Member No.: 2,800 |
In the West guns replaced bows because 1. they were alot easier to train conscripts to use and 2. were able to pierce steel plate which could be made of a quality and design to defeat most arrows. Also speaking of French calvary vs longbow the terrain and mud had as much to do with their defeat as the longbow did. |
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Oct 8 2006, 12:13 AM
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#143
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Gunpowder != Gun Then again, I'm pretty sure they used gunpowder for fireworks and explosives, so... |
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Oct 8 2006, 12:15 AM
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#144
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
They also used it for primitive firearms, made out of bamboo and perhaps something else as well.
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Oct 8 2006, 03:53 AM
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#145
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Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 21-September 06 Member No.: 9,450 |
First thing:
One of the problem to debating on the net is that, there’s no judges! :( Usually, in real debates, you have judges who evaluate how convincing the debaters argumentation is and choose a winner. The second problem is that people debate for two reasons. One: To find out the “truth” as subjective as it may be. The other reason is to prove that you’re right, no matter if you actually are or not. Now, from my experience, most people fall in the second category. When you debate and your obsession is being right, this is where things turn bad. People get pissed off and disrespectful, people play with semantics to “prove” their points or use irrational logic, they misinterpret what the other person is saying on purpose to create confusion and once again prove their point. That’s too bad because I don't think anyone is ever right all the time. Sometimes it requires a little bit of humility to admit: “Well, you know what, your judgment is a bit more accurate on that point than mine…” So what? It doesn't much, does it? I think the reason why people want to be right all the time is partly oversensitive egos that get easily bruised should one be proven to be wrong. That’s just my take on it. I’m just saying that whenever you are debating it might be a good idea to be honest with yourself and identify what your motivations really are. Second thing: And as far as this is concerned:
And this:
Well, the thread pretty much went in many directions: armor, history, China, languages, politics… etc… AFAIK this pretty much implies that things can go off topic every once in a while. Also If Kage wants to start a debate about guns in “Guns 101” he’s not that far off from the whole point of the thread is, isn’t he? He’s certainly closer to the point than the bits and pieces about the French language or my observations of China. And I should add that people don't usually debate by themselves. If more than one person is interested, why not? I thought the whole point of a forum was to communicate. And finally, since I’ve already said that much, isn’t the moderators function to decide (wrongly or rightly) what should be or shouldn’t be posted and where it should or shouldn't go? Third thing: Although I don't really want to get involved about the nature of guns, there’s something that bothers me in the logic being used here.
And they are. Would anyone contradict this fact? People invent things for a reason, I think we can safely make that statement. Shoes we invented to protect our feet. Guns we invented to kill things.
What do you mean? From my personal perception of inventions in the world, most things are used in the way they were specifically designed for. Examples: *Car *Phone *Television *Plane *Grammar And so on. So I’m not sure if that statement is true or not. I would’ve to hear more about that from you.
I think people bear some responsibility as to how they interpret language. Language is just a tool for communication, it’s up to both the emitter and the receptor to understand each other. I think that to assume that people who own guns are killers is a gross misinterpretation of what is said here.
It’s also a race in Star Trek if I’m not mistaken, Spok was Vulcan for instance.
I had no idea there were French explorers in the states. How deep south did they go? I thought most of them remained close to the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Ontario. Sault St-Marie is on the border of Ontario though, isn’t?
And you’d be making a really good point.
Ahhh… Austere, will you ever come to China? :) |
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Oct 8 2006, 04:26 AM
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#146
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Pretty deep. Edit: crap and double-crap, blocked Wikipedia. I can't find another picture that sums it up as well, but they got as far south as Louisiana, which is right next to Texas and has the Gulf of Mexico for its southern coast. ~J |
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Oct 8 2006, 06:19 AM
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#147
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
SoP, Where are you from that you know english well, aren't chinese, but are there for bussiness? and are familar with Shadowrun?
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Oct 8 2006, 06:42 AM
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#148
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Yup. And those guys are 100% objective, and always right. "Real"? I'd say any debate is only as real as the participants are making it. You could debate the existance of sour cream if you wanted, and quite heatedly, and the guy that likes guac wouldn't give a damn. :) As to your observations, you're not wrong, you just don't have any experience with Dumpshock. This too shall pass. ;) Internet culture has dick to do with the logic one would use in a face to face conversation. Sometimes it's a perk, sometimes it's a flaw. Interesting side note for example: If I had simply put "<snip>" in the quote, instead of poking Kage's buttons, he probably wounldn't have gotten his hackles up. The point would still have been "that other thread, where the nature of firearms has already been discussed ad naseum, is a better place for opinions on the nature of firearms than this thread, which was started to discuss facts about firearms". It was well intended, although it could have used a smiley. (OMGZORZ NO SMILEY111) mfb summed up my reason for posting it quite well. Irrelevance to the topic at hand. Yeah, some wandering is expected, and it can lead to great conversation. Sometimes, you see it leading to the same damn conversation had by the same damn people three days ago, and you'd rather see a thread stay relevant for a change. So, different ideas about how a thread could go, and different perspectives (I don't remember your having been involved in the Great Gun Debate of '06, for example). Oh well. No harm no foul, there have been worse disagreements here before. Kage: Which picture did you want to show? If you'll let me know, I'll be glad to host it so he can check it out without having to use Wiki. edit:: Assuming you meant this one, let me know if you didn't. Image |
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Oct 8 2006, 10:48 AM
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#149
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I already was there, though only for 9 days and mostly in Beijing. It was quite interesting to see first hand, but I'd be lying if I said I was fond of the country. |
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Oct 8 2006, 11:20 AM
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#150
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Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 21-September 06 Member No.: 9,450 |
No, you’re right they’re not, they’re only humans. But I (like to) think that having a third party does reduce the subjectivity of the whole debate. But defending a lie is dishonest. By lie I mean something which can reasonably be proven to be false. An example of such a statement could be, “You can breath oxygen in outer space.” Or any other statements who are flagrantly false. Sure, people can defend lies, but I guess it’s everyone responsibility to do this as little as possible, for the sake of mental sanity.
This is the second time people have told me this. I’m not finding this forum much different than others honestly. Why should the internet culture not obey the same rules of decency that we observe in real life?
Ok, that’s fair, I’ll give you that.
Well since you ask. I was born in Quebec. That’s the French speaking part of Canada. BTW: A tribute to Shadowrun for making the effort to do their homework about Quebec (as limited as it might’ve been). Quebec has had referendums about our independence. The last one was 49% for and 51% against, so I do believe Quebec will become a country of its own eventually. Part of the reason why is because we speak French whereas the rest of Canada speaks English. So anyways, yeah, I was born in Quebec. Won’t bore you with my life biography but I discovered a passion for languages, starting with English. I love grammar (I know, how boring is that). So I decided to go and study Chinese abroad and teach English at the same time. So this is why my first language is French, why I know a fair bit about English and why I am currently in China. I wouldn't say on business although that could be a good idea considering China’s economic boom. Oh! And Shadowrun. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never heard of Chinese playing pen and paper, the big thing here is World of Warcraft. I recently learned that they actually make money that way. Whoever is unemployed in China can play WoW 3 and sell items or whatnot and make a decent salary! So about Shadowrun, I played Shadowrun, the French edition when I was a teen. I got a AD&D overdose so I went back to the fresh, innovative system which is Shadowrun. This is also why I desperately looking for players for my online game as I can’t possibly play with real people here in China. |
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