 Magic group avatars, What's the point? |
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 Oct 8 2006, 05:18 AM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
It's a -4 penalty to your roll to make the group, and all they say it does is help with metaplanar quests. There isn't any crunch reason to have one. And why would a free spirit decide to become an avatar?
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Oct 8 2006, 06:04 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Arent the Avatars required to make a magical group, thus making initiation karma wise cheaper to do?
As to why a free spirit would become an Avatar? Who knows maybe he likes your shoes. |
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Oct 8 2006, 06:26 AM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
So there Is no point.
And no, avatars aren't needed. |
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Oct 8 2006, 06:30 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
Avatars are totally needed!
I mean that's like saying no one needs pants because they don't present a game mechanic. It's all about the flavor, and besides if you can all talk to it, isn't it like a contact? |
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Oct 8 2006, 06:48 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Ok then SR4 is different in that respect, or Im mistaking another rule for house rule, because in Third you needed an Avatar to make a magical group, which then leads to karma reductions on initiation.
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Oct 8 2006, 07:11 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Unless hte crack pipe has damaged my memory, all you need in third is 'a connection to the astral' whihc you get by rolling some (few) dice against a high TN. The more strictures you take for the group, the simpler it is.
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Oct 8 2006, 07:22 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Its been a long time, Ill have to go read it again. But I was under the impression that you had to contact an Avatar, maybe it was in 2nd edition that you needed an avatar, but since Adepts couldnt actually get into astral space to find one (making an all adept group impossible) they changed the wording.
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Oct 8 2006, 07:53 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Bah. Clearly your games have not seen enough gratuitous use of Severe Allergy(Pants). |
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Oct 8 2006, 01:46 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
In SR4, you can get the group benefit without an avatar.
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Oct 8 2006, 02:10 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Everyone needs to make at least one character with Severe Allergy(Pants). It's an integral part of the freak show character concept. |
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Oct 8 2006, 03:36 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
k, i don't have my books on me right now... but are you sure that's not a -4 to the threshold of the test to make a magical group, which would actually be a bonus?
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Oct 8 2006, 03:57 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
It's a -4 to the dicepool to make the group.
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Oct 8 2006, 04:16 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
It's a dice penalty.
I wouldn't say having a spirit that might pop in to offer critical advice or even direct support on an astral quest is useless, although with the new wholly GM dependent quests this depends on what he chooses to do with it. I also agree that it could also be used as a contact, giving hints or advice on magical issues or things relevant to its mundane field of interest, if any. But, yeah, if you're running a bare bones runner group struggling to get enough dice just to form a group for karma discount purposes, you should probably skip it. |
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Oct 8 2006, 06:52 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
It just isn't worth the dice pool penalty, from my point of view. And does the spirit get karma or something? Because that's the only benefit that I could see as great enough for a spirit to take this much trouble.
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Oct 8 2006, 07:16 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
color baby, strictly color. But hey if you run a black and white world, who needs color.
Pleasantville anyone? |
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Oct 8 2006, 11:25 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Spirits, not being players, aren't solely motivated by the game mechanics. Funnily enough, trying to define the game world by a rigorous mathematical application of the rule book doesn't work. I'd go so far as to call it a doomed, misguided exercise in triviality. You know, I've heard rumours about players which aren't solely motivated by the game mechanics, too. |
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Oct 8 2006, 11:28 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
besides, iirc the spirit for a group is not necessarily an actual, existing spirit, anymore than a mentor spirit would be.
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Oct 9 2006, 12:07 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
How are you suppose to have your cultists without their great half man, half octopus, half…erm, if they can't have his guidance on how to return him to the mortal world?
How about a Christian tradition that consults the patron angel of their order? |
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Oct 9 2006, 12:24 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Yes, I understand that, but this "flavor" costs you 4 dice to make a group, which could easily break any magical group plans. |
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Oct 9 2006, 12:31 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i would just assume it's a typo... iirc, having an avatar used to make it easier, so i would rule that it's supposed to be a reduced threshold or something. maybe one of the freelancers has some insight on this?
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Oct 9 2006, 12:43 AM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I'm not sure; it's grouped with all the penalties.
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Oct 9 2006, 11:21 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Convincing a spirit to become a group's avatar is indeed a penalty. The spirit is intended to function as an adviser, a guide during astral quests, a help in devising new metamagic techniques (remember the stuff about learning metamagics from powerful spirits, well, now you have one around), a guardian of the group's strictures, etc. Ultimately, its exact function is very much left for the gamemaster to decide; it grants no mechancial benefits and so is essentially a plot device and gamemaster tool. Using it as a type of magical contact, as someone suggested, is one idea we threw around and which might be offered up as an optional rule (probably in Runner's Companion).
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