It's a -4 penalty to your roll to make the group, and all they say it does is help with metaplanar quests. There isn't any crunch reason to have one. And why would a free spirit decide to become an avatar?

Arent the Avatars required to make a magical group, thus making initiation karma wise cheaper to do?

As to why a free spirit would become an Avatar? Who knows maybe he likes your shoes.

So there Is no point.

And no, avatars aren't needed.

Avatars are totally needed!

I mean that's like saying no one needs pants because they don't present a game mechanic. It's all about the flavor, and besides if you can all talk to it, isn't it like a contact?

Ok then SR4 is different in that respect, or Im mistaking another rule for house rule, because in Third you needed an Avatar to make a magical group, which then leads to karma reductions on initiation.

Unless hte crack pipe has damaged my memory, all you need in third is 'a connection to the astral' whihc you get by rolling some (few) dice against a high TN. The more strictures you take for the group, the simpler it is.

Its been a long time, Ill have to go read it again. But I was under the impression that you had to contact an Avatar, maybe it was in 2nd edition that you needed an avatar, but since Adepts couldnt actually get into astral space to find one (making an all adept group impossible) they changed the wording.

In SR4, you can get the group benefit without an avatar.

k, i don't have my books on me right now... but are you sure that's not a -4 to the threshold of the test to make a magical group, which would actually be a bonus?

It's a -4 to the dicepool to make the group.

It's a dice penalty.

I wouldn't say having a spirit that might pop in to offer critical advice or even direct support on an astral quest is useless, although with the new wholly GM dependent quests this depends on what he chooses to do with it. I also agree that it could also be used as a contact, giving hints or advice on magical issues or things relevant to its mundane field of interest, if any.

But, yeah, if you're running a bare bones runner group struggling to get enough dice just to form a group for karma discount purposes, you should probably skip it.

It just isn't worth the dice pool penalty, from my point of view. And does the spirit get karma or something? Because that's the only benefit that I could see as great enough for a spirit to take this much trouble.

color baby, strictly color. But hey if you run a black and white world, who needs color.
Pleasantville anyone?

besides, iirc the spirit for a group is not necessarily an actual, existing spirit, anymore than a mentor spirit would be.

How are you suppose to have your cultists without their great half man, half octopus, half…erm, if they can't have his guidance on how to return him to the mortal world?

How about a Christian tradition that consults the patron angel of their order?

i would just assume it's a typo... iirc, having an avatar used to make it easier, so i would rule that it's supposed to be a reduced threshold or something. maybe one of the freelancers has some insight on this?

I'm not sure; it's grouped with all the penalties.

Convincing a spirit to become a group's avatar is indeed a penalty. The spirit is intended to function as an adviser, a guide during astral quests, a help in devising new metamagic techniques (remember the stuff about learning metamagics from powerful spirits, well, now you have one around), a guardian of the group's strictures, etc. Ultimately, its exact function is very much left for the gamemaster to decide; it grants no mechancial benefits and so is essentially a plot device and gamemaster tool. Using it as a type of magical contact, as someone suggested, is one idea we threw around and which might be offered up as an optional rule (probably in Runner's Companion).