Clarification on Spell Increased Reflexes, No need for greater than Force 4 spell? Options

[Emod]

Hey all, new to the boards and SR4. The last ed I played was 2, so it's been a while.

I'm still trying to get accustomed to the new system and one very powerful spell in particular, Increased Reflexes, seemed a little odd to me. Just about every other spell has a purpose for casting at a greater Force (more damage, greater sense range, etc) with the exception of this one.

It would seem that, no matter what, there is never a need to cast the spell at any Force other than 3 or 4 (other than if you've got a 2 Magic). The Force limits the number of successes you can get, but there's no benefit to getting more than 4 successes, thus no need to cast it any greater. Now, granted we're looking at DV:4 here, but that's really not that bad for a decent mage using a fetish.

Am I missing something? Thanks.

[emo samurai]

If you go greater than force 4, you get bonuses to your initiative. That's about it. If I were gming, I'd say that after 4 successes, you'd get +2 to your initiative just so you don't get into the problem of diminishing returns.

[Emod]

That's certainly a work around but it says "Threshold 4 (maximum)" leading me to believe that even with 5 success you wouldn't gain anymore Initiative.

[emo samurai]

I guess it just makes it harder to dispel.

[Konsaki]

Hey, at least it's one of those spells you know instantly that it has been dispelled. :D

[Jaid]

pretty much you've got very few situations...

most of which ultimately tie in to "it's harder to dispel".

for example, it allows you to put more extra karma on a quickened version, which protects it from being dispelled better. iirc, it also protects it somewhat from astral barriers, does it not?

otherwise... well, there's a reason to do it lower: iirc, the best sustaining focus you can get at chargen is force 2. which can hold a max of a force 2 spell.

but that's about it.

[Emod]

Cool. Thanks all for the quick replies. I was pretty sure I had it right, but wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed anything given I haven't actually played yet. Once my group starts playing I think I will push for Emo's extra Initiative +1 or 2, just to have some reason for high Force beyond the dispell, which is universal to all spells for higher Force.

[Slithery D]

FWIW, I've always thought this spell is (a) stupid and (b) should follow a hits-to-essence/power points correspondence with wired reflexes and the equivalent adept power. In other words, 2 hits for 2 IP, 3 hits for 3 IP, and 5 hits for 4 IP.

[deek]

[blakkie]

[Ophis]

I run it on a 2 hits per extra pass gained threshold ie 2 for +1, 4 for +2 and 6 for +3. This makes it useful but not game breaking at force 4.

[Ryu]

The maximum number of initative passes SHOULD be expensive. Wich it generally is, except for spellcasters. Those just need a low-powered spell with little drain.

The fix would be to increase the drain on increased reflexes. Although a higher threshold does achive that goal, I´d prefer a direct increase in order of keeping the current chance of a successfull cast.

Decreasing the cost of +3IP in other places leads to a faster group, escalating the number of needed enemies.

[lorechaser]

I agree that increased reflexes can be nasty.

For the cost of 9 bp, you can get a sustaining focus, rating 3, bond it, and cast increased reflexes with 3 successes for +2 ip.

Sustaining +3 ip is harder, and must be done post creation.

[blakkie]

[Ophis]

A starting mage can easily hit four hits when casting this one in my experience, six hits is not all that hard for an initiated mage to cast (and quicken), doing at even force prevents any drain rounding cheese.

I came to this descion when the team mage (with a whole 10 karma) gave three of the party 4 passes for a fight, it just sat wrong with me, so i talked to my players, they agreed and we've been running on a 2-4-6 set up since.

I also run adept and wireds cost 1.5 ess/magic a level and have changed the cost on Wireds to 15,000¥ per level. I haven't found any of this grossly inflates my need for enemies.

[blakkie]

[Mistwalker]

I have to agree with the argument that adept improved reflexes is a wee on the expensive side.

When you can get bioware 3, for 1.5 essence (2 magic points), instead of paying 5 magic points for reflexes 3.

Get the bioware, synaptic booster 3, and add in .5 essence of beta cyberware (like a commlink, eyes, etc..).

I may drop costs for improved reflexes to 1, 2 and 3 magic points. Keep it in line with the rest.

[blakkie]

[lorechaser]

1,2,3 is far too low.

Right now, only the most dedicated of adepts can get 4 ips out of the gate.

For 3 points, everyone and their dog would have it.

I too like the 1.5

That means +1 costs you a half point more than synaptic boosters 2, but 32 bp less. +2 costs you about the same as wired 2, but doesn't cost BP. +3 is still a sizable chunk, but you can actually get 4 init passes, and a few extra abilities to make use of them....

[knasser]

I don't mind it being expensive for adepts. If you smear every method of doing something down to the same as every other method, then you destroy the Rock, Paper, Scissors of different character types. Samurai find it easier to be super fast. Adepts find it easier to go toe to toe with spirits. And you can go on.

There's almost nothing that any given character type can do that another type can't simulate. But they each have natural aptitudes and that's what makes character choices interesting and game-styles distinct.

My 0.02 :nuyen:

[Fortune]

Strange for me to say, power-gamer that I am, but I agree with knasser.

[Mistwalker]

Ah well,
I was mostly shaking my head over the fact that it is easier for an adept to get bioware than increased reflexes.

[Fortune]

And that's certainly a viable option for the character. But he would end up paying in other areas, as I am sure you know.

[Demerzel]

I have only received scorn for suggesting that he would end up paying for it in other ways. I think the common argument is that the bioware option is superior in every way...

[Fortune]

Pretty much true, with the exception of the hit to an Adept's Magic and the associated Healing penalties (if any) and other problems coming from lower Essence.