Isn't that a pretty good reason though (harder to dispel or counter)?

Force pretty much does a few things...caps the total success rolled, increases dispel/countering difficulty, determines the length of the astral signature and shows as part of the caster's aura.

I agree, that this spell is kinda funky in the way it works, but once another caster notices a hyped up PC using this, I am sure that dispelling will be coming, so that higher force will certainly be important.

My thinking is that 5PP for the Adept to get +3 IP is too steep a cost.

Keep in mind that the Essense loss from Wired Reflexes is not fixed, while the PP cost for Adepts is.

Along with Synaptic Boosters having too low an Essense Cost. I'd put them at 0.75 or 0.8 Essense per level.

Dropping it from 5PP Adepts? Hogwash. The issue is that that cost is out of line with other options. Other non-spell options, specifically the bioware.

The spell doesn't bother me too much given the problems crossing barriers. Getting 4 successes isn't that easy unless you've got a good mittful of dice. The fact that there really isn't any reason to cast at Force 2 rather than 3 is irksome to me, but that's more of a general problem with casting. I guess you could switch to 2 - 4 - 6. But 6 hits is a LOT of hits. Having 1-3-5 is likely more in line, (drain of 2 boxes, 3 boxes, and 4 boxes). I guess it depends a lot on how you construct your world, how common wards are.

EDIT: Also keep in mind the mage either has to sustain it, arrange some sort of spell casting spirit to cast and sustain it, or have a focus in place. Having the focus also makes you vulnerable to astral disruption of the spell at all times by an astral form attacking the active focus.

Stats on that mage? How many points of Edge did he use to do that? Because a starting mage can't have even one Sustaining Focus to hold a Force 4 spell. Even a fairly specialized mage focusing on Health spells is likely rolling with less than double digits for the 3rd spell. With 10 dice you only net 4 hits 1 in 3 castings. That means he'll likely be resisting 4 boxes of drain 2 or 3 times, at -4 die for the Drain Test, just to get that 3rd spell up.

Or summoning a fairly beefy Spirit of Man for each spell. Because even a Force 5 spirit is once again only going to be able to land that spell 1 in 3 times.

That sounds about right for Adepts. I don't know abut Wired Reflexes, haven't looked too closely at that. I'm OK with cyberware taking somewhat of a backseat to bioware, but that's more a flavour issue since they are both implants.

That might be cheapening it a little too much. 1PP is a little low for what you're getting, even the +2IP for 2PP. I'd also definately keep the +3IP option at 4PP or higher. At 3PP you have enough PP leftover for a serious AWESOME flying wung-fu Adept right out the gate. Even for emo's games it might be a bit much considering his other 'tweaks' to punch up the AWESOME of Adepts.

I guess that's why I dig the 1.5PP/level so much?

Plus if you raise the Synaptic Booster essense to 0.8/level then it starts making sense to even consider something other than bioware for Adepts without dropping the PP cost of Increased Reflexes down as far as you suggest.

Magic 6, Spellcasting 4, no bonus dice, he spent a couple of edge IIRC, the third rolls was damn good. He did spend the rest of the fight hiding in the basement rather than doing anything useful.

They both appear to be working, at least one high karma PC converted from 3rd has delta wired based on these costs, seeing 100,000:nuyen: and .75 essence as a small price to pay for being able to turn them off.

The problem some people are having is that Adepts can have access to both.

I would not allow the magic attribute to be bought off at the lowered end, but what the total magic attribute should be.

Ex.: 2 points essence loss, 3 points magic would be listed as MAGIC: 3(1)
If they wanted to increase magic, they would use the higher number.


On the cost of Improved Reflexes, I am not just thinking about chargen, but once the game get's rolling. If someone wanted to make an adept with no improved reflexes, no bioware at chargen, but planned on buying some alpha, beta or delta bioware down the road.... and used combat drugs to give him the boost until then...

That is the problem. This has been gone through extensively here before. If you work through the numbers of "paying in other areas" it isn't even close. Synaptic Boosters > Increased Reflexes Powers. The only advantage to Increased Reflexes is that you can get your 4th IP at chargen, but to do so you basically hose your Adept. So Increased Reflexes's sole advantage, from powergaming perspective, isn't.

Geas for a discount? What "discount" is that? Do you realise how Geasa work now?

Synaptic Boosters "hose" it?

This has been hashed out THROUGHLY. Search for the threads.

There's an optional rule in SM that allows you to take a Geas to reduce the PP cost by 25%.

I got the impression that he was talking about the standard rules. Not altered rules.

Why? I'm not trying to prove anything, nor do I care to rehash old arguments. A claim was made that the only advantage of IR is a 4th IP at chargen. I pointed out that there is another advantage. Whether it's a good enough advantage to make the two wholly balanced is a matter of opinion. I personally don't think it is, but also don't think that cyber and IR need to be balanced with one another, as adapt vs. sammie balance should come by looking at each archetype as a gestalt, not a line-for-line comparison.

Then don't. That's what I'm suggesting.

Bullshit. And it wasn't even factual.

Are you really that stupid? For fucks sake reread. That goes for most of the rest of your supposed timeline.