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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 10 2006, 01:36 PM
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I was reading the rules about healing and recovery in the 3rd edition.

I was thinking that it wouldn't be realistic to have the characters heal as in real life as it would take ages to heal any serious wounds.


What actually happens in your body when you're healing?

Critias: If you don't find this interesting, I suggest you browse the other threads.
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eidolon
post Oct 10 2006, 01:55 PM
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I don't recall the specific number at the moment, and I'm at work so I can't look it up, but healing isn't instantaneous. You have to maintain the spell for a certain number of rounds before the effects are permanent. If the spell is interrupted prior to that, it doesn't heal you.

As to what happens in the body, "whatever you explain it as" really. It's not specified, but just picture any sci-fi or fantasy show/movie/scene in a book where they describe the bones, tissue, and sinew knitting itself back together.
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blakkie
post Oct 10 2006, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace @ Oct 10 2006, 07:36 AM)
I was reading the rules about healing and recovery in the 3rd edition.

I was thinking that it wouldn't be realistic to have the characters heal as in real life as it would take ages to heal any serious wounds.

Realism™ sucks.
QUOTE
Critias: If you don't find this interesting, I suggest you browse the other threads.

You've been making friends again Critias? :grinbig:
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Fortune
post Oct 10 2006, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace @ Oct 10 2006, 11:36 PM)
Critias: If you don't find this interesting, I suggest you browse the other threads.

A preemptive strike by someone with the name 'Seeker of Peace'. Sounds like America. ;) :D
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 10 2006, 06:40 PM
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Ironic. Isn't Seeker in China?
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Fortune
post Oct 10 2006, 06:51 PM
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Yep.
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Backgammon
post Oct 10 2006, 08:24 PM
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Uh, vague question. I will answer best I can:

I've had a GM who insisted "damage takes long to heal, buddy" and enforced nazi rules for extremely long helaing periods as well as massive atrophy of you physical attributes while in convalescence. More realistic, I agree. Totally retarded game-wise, as getting wounded effectively wrecks your character.

For my part, I use the standard heal times. It is indeed pretty fast compared to reality. I therefore explain it with the fact that modern medicine uses A LOT of nanotechnology and biotechnology in order to heal damages tissue and bones at very rapid rates. While it seems like that kind of advanced tech would cost a lot to us, in SR it is so widespread that even your crummy Barrens street doc, or your medkit, has access to it.
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eidolon
post Oct 10 2006, 08:31 PM
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Ha, yeah. So I automatically assumed "magic" when I read the first post, my bad.

But my answer to healing times is a combination of what Backgammon has said (newer tech) and the fact that it's a game, and a player/character being "down" for an appendectomy for a "realistic" amount of time sucks.
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 10 2006, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
I was reading the rules about healing and recovery in the 3rd edition.

I was thinking that it wouldn't be realistic to have the characters heal as in real life as it would take ages to heal any serious wounds.


What actually happens in your body when you're healing?

Critias: If you don't find this interesting, I suggest you browse the other threads.

Well, the rules are a little bit ambiguous. Since I was big on making challenging campaigns and since I tried to keep the pressure on with intense timelines back in my day, I often found myself having to calculate how much a character could have healed in a certain amount of time.

It's actually been about a year since I've gamed now, but IIRC the character rolled unmodified Body against the TN supplied in the damage and healing section, and every 2 (?) successes succeeded in halving the time, so you got a fair amount of variation there.

One problem, in my mind, was what happened if a character rolled versus the injury TN and got 0 successes. Mathematically, that would mean you divide the healing time by zero. The universe gets a divide by zero error and crashes, meaning the campaign and the characters are forever destroyed.

Just kidding. Actually, since you divide by zero it means the healing time becomes infinite and the character never heals.

Seriously, I didn't know what to do. I didn't feel it was really right to treat 0 successes (a failure) as the same thing as 1 success (a success), but I couldn't figure out any mathematical alternatives, so I just treated 0 and 1 success as the same result.

In retrospect maybe rolling 0 successes could count as adding +50% or +100% to the base healing time, which represents the complications of infection, or something like that. That would also put the squeeze on people who choose to nerf their body scores to pimp quickness, I guess.


One comment on "real life" healing times: in "real life", yes, healing would take a lot longer and characters would probably need to do physical therapy for a long time to recover full physical functionality. However, I would argue that in the context of SR, with its advanced nanotech and cyberware capabilities, that we don't need to make healing and rehab times mimic those of today. I mean, if they have the technology to make a piece of steel interface flawlessly with the brain I'm pretty sure that they're damn handy with organic limb reattachment, etc. I just assume that the medkits contain some advanced things that help people heal superfast, maybe packets of really simple and cheap disposable nanomachines that you pour on your wound that help reconstruct tissue, or something like that.

Lastly, addressing "what actually happens in your body when you're healing"? That's kind of a big question, isn't it? In essence, the body tries to repair muscle and bone tissue that has been damaged by regrowing it and at the same time it uses your immune system to try and prevent infection, which may be lethal or debilitating, from taking hold. Sometimes mechanical problems (like your bone being snapped in frigging half) prevent natural healing and that's why sometimes you need medical attention. Sometimes the body also reacts to injury or trauma by having other parts of the body not directly affected swell up and act out, and sometimes those reactions in and of themselves can be lethal. It's a big question, but I guess that's a general overview.

BTW, infection doesn't usually get much attention in RPGs, but it's a very serious issue and in real life controlling infection was one of the biggest problems faced by medical practitioners once a patient was stabilized. If you were to make "Real Life: The RPG" you'd need a ginormous 1st ed D&D table with percentile dice rolls based on the latest medical research just to deal with infection and their complications following stabilization.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 10 2006, 11:21 PM
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My interpretation of the healing rules is that rolling 0 successes means you don't heal during the base time period and have to roll again at the end of it.

~J
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 11 2006, 12:04 AM
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I meant the biology of it. What happens? On the molecular level?

As for Critias, it's not a strike. I just preventing someone dropping in and telling me what is being said is not interesting. It doesn't really do much for either of us.

Peace is the absence of conflict, isn't? :grinbig:
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 11 2006, 12:26 AM
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I would suggest Googling it up. I'm sure there are some non-Wikipedia sources out there that PRC doesn't block.

To quote Wikipedia, though:
QUOTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing)
Healing is the process whereby the cells in the body regenerate and repair to reduce the size of a damaged or necrotic area. Healing incorporates both the removal of necrotic tissue (demolition), and the replacement of this tissue.

The replacement can happen in two ways:

    * by regeneration: the necrotic cells are replaced by the same tissue as was originally there.
    * by repair: injured tissue is replaced with scar tissue.

Most organs will heal using a mixture of both mechanisms.

[...]

Healing by regeneration

In order for an injury to be healed by regeneration, the cell type that was destroyed must be able to replicate. Most cells have this ability, although it is believed that cardiac muscle cells and neurons are two important exceptions.

Cells also need a collagen framework along which to grow. Alongside most cells there is either a basement membrane or a collagenous network made by fibroblasts that will guide the cells' growth. Since ischaemia and most toxins do not destroy collagen, it will continue to exist even when the cells around it are dead.

[...]

Healing by repair

Healing must happen by repair in the case of injury to cells that are unable to regenerate (e.g. cardiac muscle or neurons). Also, damage to the collagen network (e.g. by enzymes or physical destruction), or its total collapse (as can happen in an infarct) cause healing to take place by repair.

Soon after injury, a wound healing cascade is unleashed. This cascade is usually said to take place in three phases: the inflammatory, proliferative, and maturation stages.

In the inflammatory phase, macrophages and other phagocytic cells kill bacteria, debride damaged tissue and release chemical factors such as growth hormones that encourage fibroblasts epithelial cells and endothelial cells which make new capillaries to migrate to the area and divide.

In the proliferative phase, immature granulation tissue containing plump active fibroblasts and forms. Fibroblasts quickly produce abundant type III collagen, which fills the defect left by an open wound. Granulation tissue moves, as a wave, from the border of the injury towards the center.

As granulation tissue matures, the fibroblasts produce less collagen and become more spindly in appearance. They begin to produce the much stronger type I collagen. Some of the fibroblasts mature into myofibroblasts which contain the same type of actin found in smooth muscle, which enables them to contract and reduce the size of the wound.

During the maturation phase of wound healing, unnecessary vessels formed in granulation tissue are removed by apoptosis, and type III collagen is largely replaced by type I. Collagen which was originally disorganized is cross-linked and aligned along tension lines. This phase can last a year or longer. Ultimately a scar made of collagen, containing a small number of fibroblasts is left.

There's a gazillion variations of these, for all types of injuries on every organ in the human body and how the various cells in them react.

What happens on a molecular level is not so much biology as it is chemistry and physics. It's also way beyond anything a GM should usually bother with.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 11 2006, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
Peace is the absence of conflict, isn't?

No, not really. Not except for extraordinarily inclusive meanings of "conflict", at least.

~J
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hyzmarca
post Oct 11 2006, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 10 2006, 05:08 PM)
One problem, in my mind, was what happened if a character rolled versus the injury TN and got 0 successes.  Mathematically, that would mean you divide the healing time by zero.  The universe gets a divide by zero error and crashes, meaning the campaign and the characters are forever destroyed.

Just kidding.  Actually, since you divide by zero it means the healing time becomes infinite and the character never heals.

As a math major, I must support the former interpertation. a/0=∞ is incorrect in the vast majority of mathmatical systems, including the real numbers under standard operations (which SR3 uses).

You see, the problem with a/0=∞ is that division is defined as the inverse of multiplication such that a/x = y implies that a=yx.

If a/0 = ∞ then 0∞ = a

Multiplication is defined as repeated addition such that ay = [Σ(k=1 to a) of y] and [Σ(k=1 to y) of a].

For 0∞ these formulas give us [Σ(k=1 to ∞) of 0] = 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 …

While this addition continues to infinity it is always true that 0+0 = 0

Likewise [Σ(k=1 to 0) of ∞] = (∞-∞) = 0

Therefore (0∞ = 0) so (a=0∞) is only true for a=0 which implies that (a/0 = ∞) is only true for a=0.

However it is also true that (0=0y) for all numbers y so (0/0 =y) is true for all numbers y. Therefore, a/0, a=!0 does not exist in the set of all real numbers under standard opeations and 0/0 is undefined in the set of all real numbers under standard operations.

There are systems where a/0=∞ can be said to be true, but they are special cases. These systems include the real projective line, Riemann spheres, and wheels. It is important to note that division in these systems is not defined the same way that division is defined in the real numbers under standard operations.


Personally, it think that it would be far more elegant to define healing base times as a factor of e determined by the number of wound boxes.

A good idea might be (e^(x+1))/(e+y) where x is [the number of damage boxes divided by 2 (round up)] and y is the number of healing successes.
In this case healing a single box of damage with 1 success would take 1.98 days while healing 10 boxes of damage with 10 successes would take 31.72 days. One could adjust this by adjusting the divisor in x. With a divisor of 1.5 in x we get 234 days to heal a deadly wound with 10 successes.

We could further refine this by tracking and treating every wound seperatly. For example, if you took 10 boxes from an assualt canon you would be going against the full (e^6)/(e+y) healing time. However, if you are shot 4 times, taking three medium wounds and a light wound, you make 4 hoaling tests with the time of (e^3)/(e+y) three times and e^2/(e+y) once. This results in multiple small wounds having substantially less healing time than a single large wound does.

Of course, the only problem with this is that the players will have to know what e is (2.71828182845904523536, give or take)
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 11 2006, 04:40 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
As a math major, I must support the former interpertation. a/0=? is incorrect in the vast majority of mathmatical systems, including the real numbers under standard operations (which SR3 uses).

You see, the problem with a/0=? is that division is defined as the inverse of multiplication such that a/x = y implies that a=yx.

If a/0 = ? then 0? = a

Multiplication is defined as repeated addition such that ay = [?(k=1 to a) of y] and [?(k=1 to y) of a].

For 0? thee formulas give us [?(k=1 to ?) of 0] = 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 …

While this addition continues to infinity it is always true that 0+0 = 0

Likewise [?(k=1 to 0) of ?] = (?-?) = 0

Therefore (0? = 0) so (a=0?) is only true for a=0 which implies that (a/0 = ?) is only true for a=0.

However it is also true that (0=0y) for all numbers y so (a/0 =y) is true for all numbers y. Therefore, a/0, a=!0 does not exist in the set of all real numbers under standard opeations and 0/0 is undefined in the set of all real numbers under standard operations.

There are systems where 0=? can be said to be true, but they are special cases. These systems include the real projective line, Reimann spheres, and wheels. It is important to note that division in these systems is not defined the same way that division is defined in the real numbers under standard operations.

Marry me?

~J
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hyzmarca
post Oct 11 2006, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 10 2006, 11:36 PM)
As a math major, I must support the former interpertation. a/0=? is incorrect in the vast majority of mathmatical systems, including the real numbers under standard operations (which SR3 uses).

You see, the problem with a/0=? is that division is defined as the inverse of multiplication such that a/x = y implies that a=yx.

If a/0 = ? then 0? = a

Multiplication is defined as repeated addition such that ay = [?(k=1 to a) of y] and [?(k=1 to y) of a].

For 0? thee formulas give us [?(k=1 to ?) of 0] = 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 …

While this addition continues to infinity it is always true that 0+0 = 0 

Likewise [?(k=1 to 0) of ?] = (?-?) = 0

Therefore (0? = 0) so (a=0?) is only true for a=0 which implies that (a/0 = ?) is only true for a=0.

However it is also true that (0=0y) for all numbers y so (a/0 =y) is true for all numbers y. Therefore, a/0, a=!0 does not exist in the set of all real numbers under standard opeations and 0/0 is undefined in the set of all real numbers under standard operations.

There are systems where 0=? can be said to be true, but they are special cases. These systems include the real projective line, Reimann spheres, and wheels. It is important to note that division in these systems is not defined the same way that division is defined in the real numbers under standard operations.

Marry me?

~J

What is your net annual new income including stock dividends and subtracting debt payments?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 11 2006, 01:28 PM
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Low. Very low. Mmm, studenthood.

~J
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Lindt
post Oct 11 2006, 05:08 PM
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Can I say again, I LOVE Dumpshock, and all the batshitcrazy people therein (with a few notable exceptions)?

I believe that if you score no sucesses on your healing test it wont just "heal on its own". You need to go see a professional (aka Dr feel good in the back room).

Having had a charcter take 7-9 boxes in 2 back to back runs, and then have to slug though the 3rd run sporting a mod. wound, Ill argee that healing times suck. Thank goddess for magic healing, neh?
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Moon-Hawk
post Oct 12 2006, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
As a math major, I must support the former interpertation. a/0=∞ is incorrect in the vast majority of mathmatical systems, including the real numbers under standard operations (which SR3 uses).

That is true for a math major and for mathmatical systems. Just to give another perspecitve:
For an engineer, and for the reality system, 0 and infinity pretty much never occur. Anything that is truely 0 or infinity is either not part of your problem, or, by it's existance, has already caused your problem to not exist.
0 is shorthand for "so small I don't care anymore", and infinity is shorthand for "so big I don't care anymore". So to an engineer, x/0=infinity is true and valid, and actually works very well in solving many of the problems that make our lives work.
In theory, you can't divide by zero. In practice, it works quite well and is a handy trick to finding a sufficiently accurate answer to an otherwise difficult or unsolvable problem.
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krayola red
post Oct 12 2006, 10:19 PM
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Every time I see a mathematical equation, the evil inside me grows a little. :(
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Dranem
post Oct 13 2006, 07:28 AM
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My memory on 3rd Ed healing might be a little fuzzy... but I seem to recall in the healing tests that 0 successes means that no healing is done over that period of time, hence lengthens the healing time till you do your next roll...

I'll dig through my books when I get home.
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Ryu
post Oct 13 2006, 12:56 PM
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@Moon-Hawk: Remember your static lessons. Zero does occur rather often - at least if you do it right.

3rd Ed.!

0 successes by the BBB:
no medical aid: medical aid is now required
medical aid: semi-undefined. I´d read that you use the base time and therefore 0 successes lead to the same result one success does.

0 successes by the optional rules from Man and Machine:
base time is doubled
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De Badd Ass
post Oct 13 2006, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 10 2006, 11:40 PM)
Marry me?

~J

What is your net annual new income including stock dividends and subtracting debt payments?

Now I know why it's called Dumpshock!
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Draconis
post Oct 13 2006, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

What happens on a molecular level is not so much biology as it is chemistry and physics.

Excuse me? Not biology? Funny I thought my degree was in molecular biology not chemistry or physics. :P
Now if you had said Biochemistry at least you'd be in the right ballpark.

Bah it's too damn early to clarify this stuff, I need coffee. I think this thread is rediculous anyway. Does the original poster want mechanistic details? Hell that level of detail is rather dull and not really the point of a RPG anyway.
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Critias
post Oct 13 2006, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace @ Oct 10 2006, 08:36 AM)
Critias: If you don't find this interesting, I suggest you browse the other threads.

What's funny is, I clicked on this thread by accident. It seemed to me that "Healing: How Long Does It Take?" was one of those zany questions that could be easily answered by, y'know, reading the fucking manual. But I'm weird that way. So (and this is just so you don't flatter yourself) I never even looked past the thread title to see who posted it, and even if I had, I wouldn't have really given a fuck. Because, to be quite honest, I forgot all about you (you being SeekerOfPeace) almost as soon as I stopped talking to you. Sorry.

However? Once I accidentally clicked on this thread, the irony just got thicker. Because, were it not for one little line of text -- nay, in fact, one little word that caught my eye (my user name, in case you're wondering) -- I would have simply clicked my way back out of it and into the general discussion area. In point of truth, I didn't even see who the poster was 'till I noticed that line. I would've left, blissfully uncaring as to the rest of the thread, and all would've been calm in Dumpshockisburgvilletown. But no.

No, that can't happen, now. Because SeekerOfPeace felt like he just had to say something in this thread opener. Some little jabby-jabby, like Scrappy-Doo. He just couldn't help himself. The voices tell him not to take his pills, so he posts silly shit like that. So instead of just clicking 'back' on my browser window, or maybe even traipsing off down the information superhighway to some other forum entirely for a few minutes, now I feel I have to respond. Not by stating this thread isn't interesting, oh no, but instead by posting the entirety of the lyrics to Denis Leary's Asshole Song, from his smash hit cd No Cure For Cancer.

SOP, you attention whore, this one's for you. *smooch*

<Spoken>
Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American Dream. About me. About you. The way our American hearts beat down in the bottom of our chests. About the special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the sub-cockle area. Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon, we don't know.

I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job
I'm your average white suburbanite slob
I like football and porno and books about war
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor
My wife and my job, my kids and my car
My feet on my table, and a cuban cigar

But sometimes that just ain't enough to keep a man like me interested
(Oh no) No Way (Uh-uh)
No, I've gotta go out and have fun
At someone else's expense
(Oh yeah) Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

I drive really slow in the ultra-fast lane
While people behind me are going insane

I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, such an asshole)

I use public toilets and piss on the seat
I walk around in the summertime saying, "How about this heat?"

I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)

Sometimes I park in handicapped spaces
While handicapped people make handicapped faces

I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's a real fucking asshole)

Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song
Ranting and raving and carrying on
Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm wrong

Naaaah!

I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)

<Spoken>
You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado convertible, hot pink with whaleskin hub caps and all leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115mph getting one mile per gallon, sucking down quarter pounder cheese burgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non-biodegradable styrofoam containers and when I'm done sucking down those grease ball burgers, I'm gonna wipe my mouth with the American flag and then I'm gonna toss the styrofoam container right out the side and there ain't a God damned thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why.

Two words. Nuclear fucking weapons, okay?! Russia, Germany, Romania -- they can have all the Democracy they want. They can have a big democracy cake-walk right through the middle of Tiananmen square and it won't make a lick of difference because we've got the bombs, okay?! John Wayne's not dead -- he's frozen. And as soon as we find the cure for cancer we're gonna thaw out the duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know why? Have you ever taken a cold shower? Well multiple that by 15-million times, that's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be. I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavetes...
(Hey)
and Lee Marvin
(Hey)
and Sam Pekinpah
(Hey)
And a case of Whiskey and drive down to Texas...
(Hey, you know you really are an asshole)
Why don't you just shut-up and sing the song pal!

I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)

A-S-S-H-O-L-E Everybody! A-S-S-H-O-L-E

<Barking>
Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf
Fung achng tum a fung tum a fling chum
Oooh Oooh

<Spoken>
I'm an asshole and proud of it!



There we go, schnookums. Feel better, now that you got a little attention? Feel like you can point and go "See? Look everyone, he really is an asshole!" because you were oh-so clever and baited me, or whatever you were out to do? Proud of yourself, for poking that beehive with your stick? Passing the time in Communist China well enough for your liking? Does the widdle wooky-wookums feel good now that he got someone to pay attention to him?
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th July 2025 - 07:59 PM

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