 I need cyberpunk novels now., I've read Neuromancer and Snow Crash... |
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 Oct 12 2006, 02:51 AM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935  |
No, Friday was in all respects a typical straight science fiction story of the era. It lacked the cyberpunk attitude and style, no matter how many common (but far from universal) traits it may have shared. Contrast Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix with Larry Niven's Known Space, for an example. There was nothing new introduced in cyberpunk - only a new method of looking at what had already been introduced in sci fi previously. Cyberpunk was ever a loose genre, and ideally you should restrict it to the output of certain authors during a certain period. |
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Oct 12 2006, 02:58 AM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It was absolutely a parody. Cyberpunk has balkanization? Snow Crash is balkanized down to the neighborhood level. Cyberpunk has inflation? Snow Crash has, what, million-dollar values being thrown around on a daily basis. Life is cheap in cyberpunk? In Snow Crash, you risk your life to deliver pizza on time. So on and soforth. The problem is where cyberpunk is already a bit silly. Take monowire, for instance. Monowire you (or at least I) can squinch your eyes a little bit and take seriously, if only for a minute. Glass knives, while probably only a few orders of magnitude more silly than monowire (where silly is measured in newtons), go beyond that point and into the territory of the just-plain-crazy. So on and soforth. ~J |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:00 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I disagree. While Friday may not qualify as what would later become classic cyberpunk due to atmospheric concerns, it's whole milieu is cyberpunkish, and I refer to it as quasi-cyberpunk. |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:02 AM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don't remember much in Friday that would qualify as "punk", or indeed in Heinlein's writing as a whole, but I do admit it's been at least six years since I read Friday.
~J |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:04 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was opening my eyes to your viewpoint. I tend to have a very limited capacity for parody, which may explain why I so unconsciously rejected the whole novel. |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:07 AM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I was just excited because someone finally gave me the excuse to give the justification I should have given up front but didn't because something about doling information out in small chunks makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Don't mind me :) ~J |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:10 AM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Yeah, calling the main dude "Hiro Protagonist" and making him arbitrarily the greatest swordfighter was pushing it.
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Oct 12 2006, 03:15 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I've read Friday several times. [ Spoiler ]
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Oct 12 2006, 03:16 AM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
It's a false categorization. The milieu, in this case, is much less cyberpunk than (for an example) Brave New World, which at least has a classic dystopian atmosphere. There is no "street-awareness" in Friday; the main character is a nymphomaniac artificial super-spy who works for a fully-funded organization - and when that falls out she finds a job almost immediately. She never feels true desperation. I wouldn't discriminate against the novel on account of the space opera elements, but it also doesn't owe any sort of debt to previous cyberpunk or pre-cyberpunk (immediate pre-cyberpunk, like John Shirley) works. |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:26 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
This one needs to be second and thirded. Good luck with your used copy search online. |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:26 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Y'all are avoidin' the issue. I really wanna know 'bout them there 'elf-punk' books.
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Oct 12 2006, 03:31 AM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Mercedes Lackey (with others), the SERRAted Edge/Diana Tregarde/Bedlam's Bard series. Also, if you can find it, the Bordertown anthologies edited by Terry Windling. |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:35 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I do not feel it is.
Friday's future-Earth was quite dystopian.
There wasn't one in Voice of the Whirlwind, either. That's razor-hot cyberpunk to the core.
Hardly. Why is it that women who are comfortable with sexuality and sex are labeled with derogatory names (invented by men)? (Yes, that is a rhetorical question.) Men can have sex as much as they want and that's good (or "playboyish"), but if a women does the same thing, she's a "women of ill-repute". :sarcasm: :silly: (Hint: This is one of the "Ms. Grundy" topics of modern anglo-saxon society Heinlein tossed into his novels in order to provide illumination for his readers.)
[ Spoiler ]
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Oct 12 2006, 03:38 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Which is really the crux of the dilemma. As much as I like literary arguing, we've come full circle with our arguements, basically. Agree to disagree? |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:39 AM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Friday's problem is not how much or little sex she has. Her problem is that she was written by Heinlein, which makes her a nymphomaniac.
~J |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:42 AM
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#41
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Danke. :) |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:42 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
De nada.
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Oct 12 2006, 03:43 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
We have reached that point. :cool: |
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Oct 12 2006, 03:55 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
To me, the trouble with Snow Crash was that it took parody past the point of sly and to the point of ham-handed camp. He also seemed to be a wee bit too impressed with his own cleverness, and the obnoxious stereotypes didn't help, either. All told, it could have been a lot better.
By the way, if you check out Ghost in the Shell, the manga is way better than the movie. |
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Oct 12 2006, 04:02 AM
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#45
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The first manga collection is awesome. The second manga collection is kinda like watching a grand-master chess tournament, only you don't know chess and no one's explaining what's going on—there's obviously something happening, someone is making brilliant moves or errors, but damned if you can figure out who, what, when, or why. Oh, and this chess is totally fictional, too, so you can't even learn the rules.
Plus, Shirow is definitely giving in to his dream of being an H artist. ~J |
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Oct 12 2006, 04:24 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Nailed the Discription Kage. I always wanted to capture GitS SAC atmosphere in Shadowrun, but the complete ignorance the story keeps the viewer in, and the lengths it goes too, simply defy capture in a GAME, where PLAYERS want to know the BASIC RULES. Still, I think Gits:SAC and Full Metal Alchemist (which air about the same time in my area) would make great fodder for a campagin if I were only a bit smarter.
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Oct 12 2006, 05:08 AM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
As for Snow Crash being a parody of cyberpunk as a whole, who does Hiro Protagonist make fun of? I know the general idea of "LOL HAXXOR AND KATANA WIELDER," but are there any instances of that cliche?
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Oct 12 2006, 06:22 AM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
while it's certainly true that Snow Crash (and Diamond Age) used satire, i don't think it's fair to simply label them as just satire. it was also good, interesting science fiction whose basic premises actually make a lot more sense than anything William Gibson's ever put out. using sarcasm to make a point doesn't turn the whole thing into a comedy routine.
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Oct 12 2006, 08:20 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,050 |
I read snow crash, and some of the stuff in it would have seemed ridiculous if the writer wasn't as good i didn't read it thinking 'parody'. When you read it the first time it dosen't come across completely ridiculous, and he was only the greatest matrix swordsman, in the flesh he fucks up several times with his blade.
Oh and yeah and altered carbon etc is great stuff! Market forces should be read by everyone interested in cyberpunk. The genre isn't quite as narrow as a lot of people seem to want it to be. Any and all genres are just pigeonholes to put things in, lets face it if theres one thing everyone should pick up from cyberpunk its that things are rarely neat and tidy in a box on shelf. Things are never black and white, even on a monochrome cctv monitor playing through your imagelink. |
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Oct 12 2006, 08:45 AM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
The Last Hot Time, John M. Ford. |
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