 I need cyberpunk novels now., I've read Neuromancer and Snow Crash... |
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 Oct 13 2006, 05:47 AM
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#76
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
That's… totally not the case. For example, I can make a bunch of dots of paint on canvas depicting the Seine (actually, I can't, not well anyway, but let's ignore that), but that doesn't make the resulting painting impressionist—I am not a part of the Impressionist movement, and that movement has been dead a long time—I cannot join that movement. No matter what, I cannot produce an impressionist work. Though I'm not sure I would agree that Cyberpunk is totally dead as a movement, nor that it entirely started with the Gibson era, it is very arguable—and if such were to be the case, those writing outside the movement cannot, by definition, be creating cyberpunk. Nothing else makes sense, nothing else is logical. ~J |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:52 AM
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#77
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's malarky. i'm not arguing specifically about Blood Music, here, because i haven't read it. but the basis of your argument is simply incorrect: there are many ways to judge something as ephemeral and indistinct as 'genre'. logic and common sense can't be your only tools, because logic and common sense don't apply the same way to works of the imagination as they do in other areas. there's a lot that can be gleamed by knowing who the author of a given work is, not the least of which is what that author might be trying to say with it--what questions he might be trying to raise, what truths he might be trying to impart, etcetera. for instance, if you pick up a book by Bruce Sterling, you know in advance that it's probably going to raise some points about what exactly it means to be a human--where humanity ends and something else begins, what those "something else"s might be, etcetera. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:17 AM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
You are not constructing a parallel case. You have stated that if you did a doodle on canvas that it wouldn't be impressionist art. I agree. Even if a master impressionist did a doodle on canvas it wouldn't be impressionist art. I assert the above. But, according to the current case for Blood Music, it is cyberpunk just because the author (who, apparently, had done no cyberpunk yet* (still waiting for someone to come up with information showing he was)) was an acknowledged cyberpunk author. This is a case of a *non-impressionist artist doing a masterwork (to some, anyway) in non-impressionist art and having it be called impressionist art. This is why your case is not parallel. ----------------------------------- In any event, where and when did Greg Bear pick up this "acknowledgement"? |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:24 AM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think Kagetenshi was specifically talking about Blood Music. i certainly wasn't. i was talking about--and i believe Kagetenshi was talking about--the reasoning you're using to arrive at the conclusion that Blood Music isn't cyberpunk, which is faulty. therefore, the cases don't need to be parallel, because i'm not (or maybe we're not) disputing the specific case of Blood Music.
as for Blood Magic specifically, i'd like to point out that Greg Bear's work since that novel has certainly delved into cyberpunk. again, whether or not Blood Music is or isn't cyberpunk, i can't say--but i can say that, based on the whole of Bear's work, i don't have a hard time believing it could be. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:26 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
Not really. Genre and sub-genre are fairly well understood terms.
But they're the primary ones that matter.
We're talking about connoisseurship at this point. That is a factor in genre determination. No one has yet presented any evidence that Blood Music has any cyberpunk sub-genre elements. The author was not a cyberpunk author when Blood Music was published as far as I can tell, and possibly may not have been one until years later.
All absolutely true. And all having absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand (i.e. the classification of the sub-genre of Blood Music).
I can't agree entirely with that. While they may not be the only tools in existence, they are very, very good ones and not to be dismissed out of hand. If you want to say that labeling books under various genres and sub-genres by the author's overall genre publication history is okay, then I don't really have a response to that. I can only say that I believe if you ran a bookstore, a lot of people would be complaining. If you want to say that your reasoning for a book to be placed under a certain genre or sub-genre is better than mine, I could accept your statements (even though I might disgree with them). This is because it is connoisseurship that effectively decides this. I say that genre and sub-genre aren defined by the content of a book. You don't find any shelving system for cyberpunk itself (being a sub-genre), but if you did, having Aristoi appear in that section because it's author was an acknowledged master of cyberpunk (and he most certainly is) would be a definite shelving error. EDIT---------------- Corrected a few typos. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:30 AM
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#81
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
...you're joking, right? you may have fairly clear ideas about how to define genres and sub-genres, but that hardly means that your particular definitions are shared by the majority, or even a minority. want to start a bloodbath? get ten people together and ask them whether they think Star Wars is sci-fi or fantasy. i agree that authorship history (both prior to and following the work in question) is not the only way to determine genre or sub-genre. but you're claiming that the identity of the author has nothing to do with defining genre and sub-genre, which is ridiculous. the labels one applies to a thing has a lot to do with how people perceive that thing. for instance, if this image were called "The Monster who Eats Girls", you wouldn't think that the monster in question is held in thrall by the girl's flower. but because it's titled "The Sorceress' Flower", we see that the girl has control of the monster by virtue of the flower she's holding. authors, and specifically the types of writing a given author often engages in, are labels that can help define fiction. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:41 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
You know, that is exactly the phrase I deleted out of my response that I had inititally typed for your quote: "[...] logic and common sense can't be your only tools, because logic and common sense don't apply [...]" -------------------------- In any event, you've now switched arguments. What belongs in what genre or sub-genre may be argued until the cows come home, but that doesn't mean the terms aren't well understood. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:53 AM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
But I am not claiming that at all. You've switched terminolgy ("identity" vs. "contents of prior publications"). I'm claiming that the contents of prior publications of the author has nothing to do with the genre or sub-genre designation of a newly published book from that author. When David Drake published his first Fantasy, should it have been dropped into the Military SF sub-genre? That is what you are arguing for from where I am standing. (And David Drake was most certainly an acknowledged master of Military SF, starting with Hammer's Slammers.)
The labels you are now discussing aren't genre and sub-genre. The viewer impressions of the artwork in question based on the hypothetical title and the real title of the artwork change the ideas of what is happening in the artwork, not the genre or sub-genre the artwork belongs to. |
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Oct 13 2006, 07:04 AM
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#84
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the argument hasn't changed at all. we're discussing what methods should be used to classify fiction into different genres and sub-genres. the definition of what defines a given genre or sub-genre can't be disassociated from that argument, because the body of work that is classified into a given genre is what defines that genre.
i'm not dismissing logic and common sense, as you seem to think. you misquoted me: what i said was that logic and common sense don't apply the same way to fiction as they do to other matters. this is because fiction--and art in general--is necessarily linked to how the viewer percieves the material. it's subjective; different viewers think different things about the same piece of work. an author strives to create a specific set of perceptions within his readers, and one good way of shaping those perceptions is by shaping their expectations. and if that doesn't convince you, how about this: it's common sense, and quite logical, to assume that if the last five books you read by an author were cyberpunk novels, then the next one you pick up will also be cyberpunk. this assumption might be incorrect, but that doesn't make it illogical. |
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Oct 13 2006, 07:05 AM
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#85
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, since David Drake's first story was (i believe) a horror story, perhaps Hammer's Slammers should be re-classified! certainly, he published a work of fantasy (The Dragon Lord) before his first work of science fiction (Time Safari). sorry, you picked a guy i've been reading for over a decade, had to show off.
but it very much does. it's certainly not the only factor to consider, and you'd make some bad choices if you used it as your only criteria for classification. but it is a factor that should be considered. and i'm very much discussing genre and sub-genre--specifically, cyberpunk. one of the things that sets cyberpunk apart from other sub-genres of science fiction is that its authors declared, in many cases, that they were cyberpunk authors. they were revolting against the dead weight of 'normal' science fiction, and that sense of revolution and the anti-establishment is part and parcel of the cyberpunk sub-genre. to answer your question, no, the Lord of the Isles shouldn't go on the sci-fi shelf. but that doesn't mean it's illogical to consider David Drake's long history as a military sci-fi writer before placing Lord of the Isles in the fantasy section, where it belongs. |
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Oct 13 2006, 08:22 AM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
mfb: I'm definitely with you in that an author's reputation has a significant impact on how a reader perceives a given work of fiction, but shouldn't the perception itself, rather than the various factors that influence that perception, be the determining criteria for genre? I mean, there are a huge amount of different variables that could sway a guy towards seeing a book one way versus seeing it another way, and authorship is only one of them. In the end, it's what he sees in it that really matters. That means that if he's challenged to explain his labeling, he should be able to provide the interpretation that drew him towards that labeling, which would be partially influenced by authorship - however, just flat out saying something belongs in a certain genre just because so and so wrote it doesn't really cut it.
Am I making any sense here? It's late, I'm tired, and I've got zombies after my ass (long story), so I wouldn't be surprised if I end up making no sense whatsoever. |
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Oct 13 2006, 12:40 PM
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#87
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, I'm not. I'm hypothesizing a parallel universe where I'm somehow capable of producing a painting similar in quality and construction to, say, the level of quality of Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, done in impeccable impressionist style, it would still not be impressionist, because I am not and cannot be an impressionist. As for Greg Bear, one opinion can be found in the article I linked to in the beginning of this discussion.
As far as it goes, yes. Well understood, though, not (absolutely not) well-defined.
Mostly because, as far as I can tell, most of us haven't read it. Swanwick certainly thought it was cyberpunk, for what that's worth.
That's no bloodbath. Ok, there might be some burnings at the stake if anyone actually argues that Star Wars is sci-fi, but the classification is obvious. ~J |
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Oct 13 2006, 01:11 PM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I'm not wading through all this for a point-for-point rebuttal, so let me just hit the highlights:
Greg Bear has had short stories (Petra and an excerpt from Blood Music) in both Mirrorshades, the definative cyberpunk anthology of yesteryear, and the more recent The Ultimate Cyberpunk. While we commonly associate cyberpunk with certain elements, this does not mean that every cyberpunk story has all of those elements. Even cyberpunk authors have differing views of what is cyberpunk, and some of those definitions are pretty broad. |
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Oct 13 2006, 02:44 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
The argument did not change in general. You just switched using one sub-argument to using a different one. At first you at appeared to be talking about the defintion of genre itself:
When I tried to assert that the meaning of the term was well known, you then appeared to be talking about what fell into what genre (a quite different thing):
You are not recognizing that I have already conceded your point. Your point is that connoisseurship defines what falls into what genre or sub-genre. I never said otherwise. However, as I will point out below, I assert that it is connoisseurship of the contents of the book, and not connoisseurship of the author that determines genre or sub-genre. ---------------------------------------- If the assertion you are supporting is true, that what book falls into what genre or sub-genre is decided upon based upon factors other than the contents of the book (i.e. connoisseurship about the book), would cause the entire publication and book selling industry to go into convulsions. It is, essentially, saying that there is a connoisseurship about the author. I'll agree that this is true, as many people prefer one car or alcohol manufacturer over another. But if Jack Daniels made wine, no one would call it beer, especially when Jack Daniels has never made either.* (* No, I am not saying that Jack Daniels has never made wine or beer, I'm just using that as an example in general, related to this dicussion based on the fact that I personally have never heard of them doing so.) That is why I assert that the above is false (i.e. "connoisseurship" of the author determines the genre or sub-genre of a book) in general for the actual publication industry. (People's individual opinions are another matter entirely.) This is largely not the way the actual genre classification system in actual use in the publication industry works. It's generally known that books are miscategorized from time to time. I've discussed with various authors the problems of switching from writing SF to Fantasy, or say from Horror to SF. There is always a risk of this because a publisher may print whatever it wants on the book (sending readers for a loop if they should buy the book). In the second case, large chain bookstores may miscategorized an SF book from a known Horror author and shelve it with Horror, again throwing readers for a loop if they should see this. These things generally cause books to severely undersell. It is a fear any author has if they publish a book out of their known genre history of prior publication. However, if Author X writes SF book 4 (Blood Music), and someone else thinks that book 4 is, in fact, cyberpunk, they are free to think so, and they would not be wrong, exactly. In the way that no one is specifically wrong about their opinion of art. However, those with this opinion should be prepared to state whey they think that book 4 is cyberpunk when it appears to contain no cyberpunkish elements at all. In this dicussion so far, no one has actually done so other than to point to contents of books labeled "cyberpunk" or the opinions of others. How about resting opinion upon the actual contents of the book? (Oh, wait, that's effectively what is under challenge here, sorry.)
That depends. Do we know that it is possible that authors may write a new novel in any genre they choose? Yes, we do know this. Therefore, making the automatic assumption that any author's next new novel will be in the same genre as the previous novel is an assumption with a certain probability of error. And yet that (the above assertion) has nothing to do with calling a sub-compact a sedan because it was made by a sedan-making car company (that might, in fact, have never made a sedan up to that point in time). |
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Oct 13 2006, 02:48 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I'm going to have to go out and read Petra, somehow. I'll see if I can hit Sam Weller's later today (ouch, probably not). <crosses his fingers that they have one of the anthologies that contain it /> Be aware that Blood Music was originally a novelette, and was developed into a novel. In anthologies, it is usually the novelette that appears.
And I would be happy to discuss, and if necessary concede the point of, Blood Music being cyberpunk. (The book itself. I can't specifically discuss the novelette as I have never read it.) I have stated a series of fundamental reasons why I think it is not. I will point out that the Blood Music novelette appears in nanotech related anthologies, Nanotech and Nanodreams, which is its own particular sub-genre. (I am also not saying that what appears in the nanotech sub-genre cannot be cyberpunk, I'm just laying out another fact/element that I feel points away from Blood Music being cyberpunk. That is, if we are to accept at all that what label that appears printed on a publication is to be considered in determining its genre/sub-genre in a world where we all know that mistakes of both categorization and inclusion can occur. Also, it is quite possible that an anthology editor will reach for something that will sell the anthology, even if it might not strictly fit into the concept of the anthology. That happens all the time.) ------------------------------- Further uptopic it was stated that Friday had no punk and therefore was not really cyberpunk. I admitted this was correct (for the most part). However, Blood Music (the novel) also has no punk (or at least none that I found). |
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Oct 13 2006, 03:02 PM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Oak Ridge, TN, CAS Member No.: 407 |
Blood Music involves a corporate scientist developing a nanite blood serum (for whatever purpose) that inevitably becomes an entity all on it's own, yes? And then the poor bastard goes and injects himself with it to keep it safe (IIRC - I've got a hardcover copy sitting on my shelf that I still need to read). While the entirety of the book may (or may not) be Cyberpunk per se, there are definitely enough elements right there that would fit very well within the setting.
But RainofSteel just had to go and make a strawman argument out of it. |
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Oct 13 2006, 03:30 PM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I'd go with you on this one except that the editors were Bruce Sterling and Pat Cadigan, respectively. [/edit]While a bit basic, this review covers some basic ground which might prove helpful. |
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Oct 13 2006, 03:50 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
Not quite. He did that so he could keep his project alive, he had no idea it was an intelligent organism when he did that. In fact, it wasn't intelligent when he did that. It rapidly evolved, somehow, from exposure to strontium bromide (IIRC).
And what would those elements have been? The existence of genetically engineered and randomly mutated organisms? (They really weren't nanotech, even if they had the overall appearance of it.) The existance of a corporate scientist trying to save his project and his career? That's it?
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Oct 13 2006, 04:30 PM
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#94
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Perhaps it's time to crack ye olde dictionary.
Cyberpunk: science fiction featuring extensive human interaction with supercomputers and a punk ambiance. - Random House unabridged dictionary Fast-paced science fiction involving futuristic computer-based societies. - Heritage unabridged dictionary a writer of science fiction set in a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology 3: a genre of fast-paced science fiction involving oppressive futuristic compterized societies -Princeton University /si:'ber-puhnk/ (Originally coined by SF writer Bruce Bethke and/or editor Gardner Dozois) A subgenre of SF launched in 1982 by William Gibson's epoch-making novel "Neuromancer" (though its roots go back through Vernor Vinge's "True Names" to John Brunner's 1975 novel "The Shockwave Rider"). Gibson's near-total ignorance of computers and the present-day hacker culture enabled him to speculate about the role of computers and hackers in the future in ways hackers have since found both irritatingly na"ive and tremendously stimulating. Gibson's work was widely imitated, in particular by the short-lived but innovative "Max Headroom" TV series. See cyberspace, ice, jack in, go flatline. Since 1990 or so, popular culture has included a movement or fashion trend that calls itself "cyberpunk", associated especially with the rave/techno subculture. Hackers have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, self-described cyberpunks too often seem to be shallow trendoids in black leather who have substituted enthusiastic blathering about technology for actually learning and *doing* it. Attitude is no substitute for competence. On the other hand, at least cyberpunks are excited about the right things and properly respectful of hacking talent in those who have it. The general consensus is to tolerate them politely in hopes that they'll attract people who grow into being true hackers. -On-line dictionary of computing Only one of these definitions specifies a date for the period of cyberpunk. None specify an end date for the cyberpunk period. All specify cyberpunk includes human interactions with computers and a punk ambiance. Hence, Snow Crash would be cyberpunk (it came after 1980, includes human interactions with supercomputers and a punk ambience), Blood Rain likely wouldn't be because it lacks both of those, or at least the punk ambience. |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:03 PM
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#95
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I reject the attempt to use the dictionary to arrive at a meaningful definition of cyberpunk.
~J |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:12 PM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
miscommunication and misunderstanding on both our parts.
how can you seperate the author from the work? who wrote a given piece of fiction is often an important piece of information, if you expect to get more out of the work than the basic events it describes. granted, differing between Lord of the Isles and Paying the Piper doesn't exactly require close study. but how about differing between Paying the Piper and, say, The Sharp End? The Sharp End is classified as military sci-fi because it's written by David Drake and it involves Hammer's Slammers. but it's based on Red Harvest, by Dashiell Hammett; the action it contains is only peripherally military. it lies really close to the line between military sci-fi and standard sci-fi--but which side does it fall on? well... it was written by David Drake. so anyplace that has a seperate military sci-fi section is going to put The Sharp End there, right next to all the other David Drake military sci-fi books. |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:14 PM
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#97
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Mommy, Daddy, stop fighting! Stop fighting!
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Oct 14 2006, 03:25 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
We could have a whole 'nuther discussion trying to pin down what "punk ambience" is, or just agree that it (and cyberpunk) are subjective terms.
I like Connie Willis, sometimes. |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:52 AM
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#99
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Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
There's already been quite a bit here recommended to read, so I'll recommend what not to read.
Nylon Angel by Marianne de Pierres is total shit for cyberpunk (not to mention just total shit for all of writing to begin with; how this crap got published to begin with and actually managed to get a sequel is beyond me). There are only two books that I have ever stopped reading in the middle of do to how atrocious they were (I've read hundreds and hundreds of books), and this was one of them. The pacing and lack of solid construction of it gave me a headache. It's like if you had a down syndrome child who was a professional auctioneer fast-talking at you about nothing as fast as they possibly can for hours on end. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM
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#100
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Some other suggestions, there's several novels recently released by the same writer for the Ghost in the Shell tv series. Two novels out so far, with one more on the way. They're called, 'The Lost Memory' and 'Revenge of the Cold Machines'. Both are written by Junichi Fujisaku, one of the show's writer if I recall correctly. There's also another novel that sets place between the two movies called, 'After the Long Goodbye' written by Masaki Yamada, another writer. This one focuses on Batou and his feelings of loss now that the Major is gone and also his feelings/thoughts if he is even human anymore.
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