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> A whole slew of magic questions:
Nerhesi
post Oct 13 2006, 02:48 PM
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How many spells can a sustaining Focus sustain? I know the force of the spell is limited by the rating. But how many Force 3 spells, for example, can a Sustaining Focii (Force 3) sustain?

Also,

What's the point of the limitation on sustaining Focii? It states a spell sustained through a sustaining focii can not have more force than the focii rating...

So?

You roll Magic + Spellcasting to cast a spell - Force almost never comes into play unless you're deciding damage or very few force related spells...

Right? I hope I'm wrong.

Does it basically limit your successes/hits to the rating of the Focii?

Sam W.
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BlackHat
post Oct 13 2006, 02:51 PM
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A sustaining focus can only sustain one spell, of its type.

The force of the spell both limits the number of successes you can achieve, and comes into play if someone attacks your focus, or you pass through a ward, or they do some fancy coutnerspelling mumbo jumbo.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE (BlackHat)
A sustaining focus can only sustain one spell, of its type.

Quite right. :)

QUOTE
The force of the spell both limits the number of successes you can achieve, and comes into play if someone attacks your focus, or you pass through a ward, or they do some fancy coutnerspelling mumbo jumbo.


As well as determining Drain Value, of course. ;)
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 13 2006, 03:51 PM
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Right. Note that he biggest Sustaining Focus you can start play with is Force 3, and the Object Resistance of a drone is 4. That means that an imroved invisibility you cast on yourself and hope to sustain with the focus you began play with won't keep you off the scanners of a steel lynx. No matter how well you roll, only 3 hits count, and that's less than the R of the drone so it sees you.

That Force cap on sustaining foci is a big deal. It's not just for limitting staring characters from sustaining 4 initiative passes on the Increase Reflexes spell or to limit your dicepool modifier from Combat Senses to +3.

-Frank
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Nerhesi @ Oct 13 2006, 09:48 AM)
What's the point of the limitation on sustaining Focii? It states a spell sustained through a sustaining focii can not have more force than the focii rating...

So?

You roll Magic + Spellcasting to cast a spell - Force almost never comes into play unless you're deciding damage or very few force related spells...

Right? I hope I'm wrong. 

Does it basically limit your successes/hits to the rating of the Focii?

Yes. And Force matters quite a lot if you have a big Spellcasting dice pool and are casting a high drain code spell. Let's say that you're a beginning character who with specialization and mentor bonuses has a pool of 15 dice for Manipulation spells. You want to cast and sustain [Element] Wall from SM, which has a drain code of (F/2 + 5). You average five successes when you cast it, but to use them all you'll face a DV of 7! There are plenty of cases where you might decide to save on a point of drain knowing it will cost you a couple of successes.

That's for regular spellcasting. Obviously the cap on a sustaining focus is a big pain for a relatively low drain spell like Deflection or Levitate. Here you're losing successes because the focus can't handle it, even though you'd be willing to risk the drain by pushing it higher.
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Mistwalker
post Oct 13 2006, 04:17 PM
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Frank,

I am not sure I agree with your statement about needed to beat the Object Resistance table for Improved Invisibility to work.

I interpret the OR table to be used when trying to affect the obejct directly, with something like a combat spell or manipulation spell.

Improved Invisibility adds penalties to the perception test, by making it harder to see you, by "bending" light around you.
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 04:26 PM
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I agree with this, but apparently we're wrong. It came up a few weeks back. I don't recall if it was officially official, but enough people who'd worked on the game said it works the way Frank says to convince me.

It's lousy metaphysics, but the entire idea of illusion spells in every magic system known to man has always suffered from lousy metaphysics. At least it had the benefit of being simple, which makes it consistent with the rest of SR4.
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Nerhesi
post Oct 13 2006, 04:33 PM
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Speaking of improved invisibility...

How in the world do you detect someone who is hitting you with direct-damage spells that is using improved inivis?

If they don't out-do it with counterspelling + willpower - are they scroooood?

Even if you barely somehow manage to "guess" where the person is - you would still get a -6 penalty to your dice pool to hit him wouldn't you?

Can assensing detect invisible people?

Is there a Sense[Ultrasound] that would let you target invisible people?

Sam W.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Nerhesi @ Oct 14 2006, 02:33 AM)
Speaking of improved invisibility...

How in the world do you detect someone who is hitting you with direct-damage spells that is using improved inivis?

If they don't out-do it with counterspelling + willpower - are they scroooood?

How would this differ if you could see the Mage?

QUOTE
Can assensing detect invisible people?


Technically, just Astral Perception is enough.

QUOTE
Is there a Sense[Ultrasound] that would let you target invisible people?


I believe Ultrasound lowers the penalty to -4.
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Nerhesi
post Oct 13 2006, 04:42 PM
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Thanks .. and:

Direct damage spells - you still check how much damage is resisted - after the spellcasting-resist check, with just body correct?

Example, Manabolt or Powerbolt. Both are first resisted via Willpower/Body + Counterspelling - and assuming there is at least 1 net hit - calculate Damage Value then roll Body to see how much is resisted?

Also - after you do a Logic+willpower roll to resist drain as a hermetic you have lets assume, 4 boxes of drain to apply (stun or physical, doesn't matter) - you can resist that with Body correct? Like normal direct damage?

Sam W.
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (Nerhesi @ Oct 13 2006, 11:33 AM)
Speaking of improved invisibility...

How in the world do you detect someone who is hitting you with direct-damage spells that is using improved inivis?

You could use the "noticing magic" rules to have a shimmer or some other visual cue connect the caster and target when he hits them. I don't think the rules as intended really contemplate this sort of thing either way, but I think it's very wise considering the possibility of mages with binoculars in a high rise magically sniping people miles away as they walk down a sidewalk.

Yes, the -6 penalty remains. That's what wide spread full auto bursts are for if you're willing to bend the rules in the interests of "reality." Yes, I know it's only supposed to hurt the defender's dice pool, but... If your GM won't bend, use suppressing fire, maybe.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Nerhesi)
Direct damage spells - you still check how much damage is resisted - after the spellcasting-resist check, with just body correct?

Example, Manabolt or Powerbolt. Both are first resisted via Willpower/Body + Counterspelling - and assuming there is at least 1 net hit - calculate Damage Value then roll Body to see how much is resisted?

No, no, no.

When resisting a Direct Damage Spell, all you get is Willpower (or Body) plus any Counterspelling dice. That's it! No second chance.

QUOTE
Also - after you do a Logic+willpower roll to resist drain as a hermetic you have lets assume, 4 boxes of drain to apply (stun or physical, doesn't matter) - you can resist that with Body correct? Like normal direct damage?


Nope. Same rule applies.
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Nerhesi)
Thanks .. and:

Direct damage spells - you still check how much damage is resisted - after the spellcasting-resist check, with just body correct?

Example, Manabolt or Powerbolt. Both are first resisted via Willpower/Body + Counterspelling - and assuming there is at least 1 net hit - calculate Damage Value then roll Body to see how much is resisted?

Also - after you do a Logic+willpower roll to resist drain as a hermetic you have lets assume, 4 boxes of drain to apply (stun or physical, doesn't matter) - you can resist that with Body correct? Like normal direct damage?

No, sorry.

You only roll Willpower/Body once against direct spells. Either you take the full damage value plus net hits or they miss entirely. For indirect spells you get a dodge attempt with Reaction and then soak normally with Body/Counterspelling/(half)Armor.

Drain resistance is a one shot deal with your appropriate mental attributes. Trolls are at the high end worse at soaking drain than everyone else, not loads and loads better.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 04:52 PM
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Beat you! :P
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 04:53 PM
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That's because I edited my first version, which originally began with...no no no!
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 04:56 PM
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I see you fit in here just fine. :D
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lorechaser
post Oct 13 2006, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE
You only roll Willpower/Body once against direct spells. Either you take the full damage value plus net hits or they miss entirely. For indirect spells you get a dodge attempt with Reaction and then soak normally with Body/Counterspelling/(half)Armor.


Note what's being said there:

For a direct damage, they roll magic+spellcasting, and get Hits.

You roll Wil/Bod + CS and reduce hits. If they have hits left, you take net hits + force in damage.

It took my party a while to really grasp how that all worked out.

QUOTE
Trolls are at the high end worse at soaking drain than everyone else, not loads and loads better.


Proving once again that Orks are superior to everyone else.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 13 2006, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Slithery)
I agree with this, but apparently we're wrong. It came up a few weeks back. I don't recall if it was officially official, but enough people who'd worked on the game said it works the way Frank says to convince me.


The Object Resistance is a threshold the spell has to achieve any time an object would be granted the opportunity to make a resistance check for the spell to not be "resisted" by that object. Essentially a river rock always gets 1 hit on spell resistance tests and a wanjina combat drone always gets 4.

When you would be in a position to see a creature protected with Improved Invisibility, you make a resistance check (Intuition + Counterspelling). A successful resistance allows you to see the creature as if it was not invisible. The drone essentially always gets 4 hits on its resistance test as its "object resistance". It's all very compact and consistent if you don't try to overthink what invisibility means.

QUOTE
How in the world do you detect someone who is hitting you with direct-damage spells that is using improved inivis?


One of several methods:
  • Beat their invisibilty spell with your resistance test.
  • You can "detect" them by noticing the spellcasting whether you see them or not, as alluded to by Slithery. The threshold is 6 - Force,, so if someone is throwing a Force 6+ Manabolt your way you detect them automatically.
  • Use other senses. Invisibility has no effect on your ability to hear your opponents.

Now if by "detect" you meant "attack" then you have a whole raft of options. You could take a blindfire penalty or simply fill the room with shrapnel or poison gas.

-Frank
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Big D
post Oct 13 2006, 08:32 PM
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I still have trouble grasping line-of-sight vs. line-of-effect--mostly when glass is involved, and especially in dealing with vehicles.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 09:55 PM
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Basically, if you can see something, you can (attempt to) affect it with Magic. The exception to this is with Indirect Damage Spells (the old Elemental Manipulations now moved to Combat), the effects of which actually travel from the caster towards the target in the real world, therefore impacting with a glass barrier that would be in the way.
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Slithery D
post Oct 13 2006, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
The exception to this is with Indirect Damage Spells (the old Elemental Manipulations now moved to Combat),

Young whippersnapper! Those would be the elemental combat spells moved to elemental manipulations and then moved back to combat spells. I hear in SR5 they're going to be Health spells. Goodbye Firebolt, hello Spontaneous Combustion.
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Fortune
post Oct 14 2006, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (Slithery D @ Oct 14 2006, 08:20 AM)
Young whippersnapper!

Not that young ... ask around. ;)

QUOTE
Those would be the elemental combat spells moved to elemental manipulations and then moved back to combat spells.


Yes I know (I've been running the shadows since the first day it hit the bookshelves), but I didn't want to confuse the lad any more than was absolutely necessary. ;)
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Big D
post Oct 14 2006, 01:24 AM
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So if I drop a powerball on a car when I can see the occupants inside, the car and the occupants are all attacked?

But if the windows are too tinted, then the powerball (or a fireball) attacks the car, and only does incidental damage to the occupants (which may still geek them in the end)?
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Jaid
post Oct 14 2006, 02:10 AM
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well, assuming by 'incidental damage' you mean 'damage caused by the car crashing due to massive damage' then yes.

there is pretty much 0 chance of a powerball affecting the people inside the vehicle, directly (and just so you know, windows that are tinted enough to protect you from mages are standard in the 6th world).

the fireball really *should* be able to damage the people inside provided it is able to blast through the windows' barrier rating. they kinda neglected to specify that in SR4, but that's how it worked in previous editions, and seems to be the general consensus of how it is supposed to work in this one (as far as the rules go, there is one place where it says indirect spells work 'like ranged weapons' or something to that effect, but there is nowhere that it says you don't need line of sight to hit something with them specifically)
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Garrowolf
post Oct 14 2006, 09:04 AM
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I don't have the 1st or 2nd edition books anymore. I have a memory or a spell and I don't know if it was a misinterpretatrion or a vague description but I remember a version of mana barrier that wouldn't allow living things to cross it. Objects could but people could'nt.
Does anyone else remember this?
I remember the thought of casting it across a road and watching the people spat against it inside their cars! Seems like our GM house ruled it away.
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