 About Snipers |
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 Oct 17 2006, 04:53 AM
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#26
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
Right. Which is why so many people are trying to point out how incorrect about 1/3 of your opening rant is. So that your argument is ground in reality. Verisimiltude. Less need for suspension of disbelief. Et cetera. |
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Oct 17 2006, 05:03 AM
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#27
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'd be very surprised to find out that it wasn't a joke. |
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Oct 17 2006, 05:05 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
What are you talking about? Dumpshockers don't make jokes, the only two things they know how to do are arguing and arguing fervently!
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Oct 17 2006, 05:33 AM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
now that's just not true, and GOD WILL SMITE YOU FOR SAYING IT!
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Oct 17 2006, 05:57 AM
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#30
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Of course not. They just tend to anyway. In the US, police tactical teams tend to follow protocols outlined by the FBI and often the LAPD or NYPD as well. The rifle equipment that these agencies test and endorse tends to follow products designed for military applications, as that equipment tends to see the most use and its effects can be judged in accordance with the agency's police-oriented requirements more readily. Individual agencies certainly can follow their own protocols, but it's far less expensive to follow the big boy's advice than it is for most departments to test all the equipment themselves or pay for the litigation that may arise from using equipment that may not have been tested as thoroughly as possible. On a personal note here, when someone says "sniper" I tend to automatically think military. Back in the day I used to manage a pizza joint in Dallas that a lot of the PD tactical team guys frequented. I got into a discussion one day with one of them (happened to be Raul Moreno, who you can occasionally see on Dallas SWAT on A&E these days) and he made a point to tell me that they don't like to refer to their sharpshooters as "snipers". Apparently it's because of the negative connotation the term draws with the public. So since then, sniper = military to me and that's why I kind of limited the scope of my post a bit. |
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Oct 17 2006, 05:58 AM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
GM > And a meteor falls out of the sky and kills your party
Player > Ok, my Shield of Impact™ takes the hit and I survive unscathed GM > How many charges does it still have? Player > Um... I think 19 GM > 20 more meteors fall from the sky, directly on you... |
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Oct 17 2006, 06:14 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Hijacking the thread, here...
Guesses as to the eventual SR4 stats of the Barrett? |
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Oct 17 2006, 06:36 AM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I agree with Dire Radiant.
We need some more real life mages on this board so that they can weigh in like the real world soldiers/cops/enthusiasts/wannabes. ;) |
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Oct 17 2006, 06:45 AM
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#34
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Indeed. "Sniper" tends to be the traditional "at most a two man team, spotter and a shooter, stalking their kill in ghillie suits for days or weeks and pooping into a diaper while they lay prone" blah blah blah sort of thing. "Sharpshooter" and even "Designated Marksman" come off as just just "guy who's supposed to shoot his rifle more accurately, and at greater distances, than the other guys he's hanging out with." Be it a SWAT team or an infantry unit in the military. "Sniper" means an awful lot more than "guy with a rifle." The media gets that wrong all the time, too. |
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Oct 17 2006, 07:25 AM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Hornady TAP seems to be a fairly well selling police rifle round. They are have vastly better terminal ballistics than goverment FMJ, in either 7.62 or 5.56. See http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_rifle.html for profiles. Also I have seen multiple references to Siera MatchKing (aka M118) bullets fragmenting much more than US 7.62 FMJ due to to the much thinner jacket. Can't find any profiles however. Also, US FMJ bullets in 7.62 mm NATO don't typically fragment. German bullets do. See the Fracklers "PATTERNS OF MILITARY RIFLE BULLETS" where he shows what a US and a German NATO "standard" bullet look like after you fire them into ballistic gelatin. The one that turned into two big fragments and 30 little fragments is the German one. So much for all NATO standard bullets behaving the same. |
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Oct 17 2006, 07:46 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Just some random thoughts...
Uber? No way. A tool like anyother. I'd be far more worried about cybermonkeymeat than snipers. You know nobody's mentioned good old fear. Snipers are great at destroying morale and generally making people paranoid. Great for slowing advances. Oh when a snipers hide has been blown they can generally kiss their ass goodbye, they tend to operate far from support. Spirits and high explosive rockets tend to show up soon after you've been made. Hmmm you know the most dangerous opponent my team ever faced was a magical sniper. Invised and laying on a nearby roof. I still kick myself for not doing a spirit sweep of the area before we did that op. My two :nuyen: |
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Oct 17 2006, 08:02 AM
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#37
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
9P -3AP, remove the rule about it only using APDS. Thats how I run it anyways... The sniper who has been played most regularly in my games uses one, and is a complete team player. He covers from range (usually top of nearby building) and then closes to first aid the team if they need. If he has no god LOS he comes in with the team and works like a normal sammie. |
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Oct 17 2006, 09:27 AM
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#38
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I was interested in trying the .308 110 TAP myself after hearing all the hype, but after seeing those results I'm a little less enthusiastic. Lack of overpenetration, yes, but not a terribly impressive wound cavity. The 155 looks much better, though. Interesting that these guys think so highly of the Barnes Triple Shock for tactical use. I bought a box of 180s for elk last year but didn't draw the tag, so I waited until the last few days of the season to buy a deer tag. By then all the good 150 grain ammo was gone, so I used the 180 BTS. Dropped a muley doe like a laser beam (straight through the lungs, full exit, never found the bullet but it made a mess; shattered ribs on both sides). I plan on sticking with that bullet, though preferrably with a 130 or 150 on deer.
This is a profile of a very similar bullet. Ouch. |
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Oct 17 2006, 10:19 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
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Oct 17 2006, 01:53 PM
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#40
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You are wrong, brother. That is not an article of faith. The Drop Bears will punish thee for thy heresy. :D |
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Oct 17 2006, 05:50 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
As far as Barrett stats, just look under "assault cannon". For many editions, what the game calls assault cannons have most closely matched antimaterial rifles in their performance. Take a look at the real life Barrett XM-109.
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Oct 17 2006, 06:04 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I was thinking specifically of my .308 Win. SOCOM II, which is a CQB semiauto, when I said that sniper rifles aren't that much more powerful than assault rifles. In spite of Ray and Austere's input, I still doubt that the sizeable difference in the damage codes between assault rifles and sniper rifles in SR is justified. Consider that the rules say that the difference in damage between an Ares Alpha assault rifle and a Predator heavy pistol is only +1 DV; we might say then that +1 DV is roughly the difference between a 10mm handgun cartridge and .223 Remington.
But the difference between the Alpha Assault rifle and the SM-4 sniper rifle is +2 DV, -2 AP. So the difference between .223 Remington and the sniper rifle round is, according to canon, HUGE. |
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Oct 17 2006, 06:15 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That could be explained with the .338 Lapua becoming the most common sniper rifle caliber -- and it would no doubt see a huge surge in popularity post-4/30/2021.
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Oct 17 2006, 07:06 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
We were told during basic training that the vast majority of the stored ammo of the german army were of the kind that fragments (sorry, I don't even know the proper designation in german). Never found out if that was true, though.
Like always, when this comes up, I point to the Steyr IWS 2000, which clearly earns the label cannon more than rifle.
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Oct 17 2006, 07:07 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
This is, of course, a rules absurdity. |
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Oct 17 2006, 07:32 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
How many threads will it take before people realize that if they want realistic guns in an RPG Shadowrun isn't the place to look for them?
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Oct 17 2006, 07:36 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You can't find realistic guns in any RPG I'm aware of. That doesn't make talking about realistic guns in RPGs pointless.
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Oct 17 2006, 07:52 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No, but it makes talking about realistic guns in Shadowrun pointless unless you're proposing an entirely new combat system.
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Oct 17 2006, 08:09 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Right. There's absolutely no way you can ever improve on anything combat-related in the game without completely rewriting everything. Good to know.
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Oct 17 2006, 08:55 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Actually, no. A rewritten equipment list would go a long way to improving the realism of SR fiirearms, with almost no change at all to the combat rules. I was tinkering with one, but decided to wait until Arsenal came out.
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