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> Real magic vs SR magic
krishcane
post Feb 29 2004, 01:59 AM
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Just a quick question for those of you who practice magic IRL... I've been practicing for a number of years, and I've never experienced anything like the SR concept of Drain when I'm conjuring or energy-moving. If anything, I feel invigorated after my work. The only time I've felt tired is after engaging some kind of negative energy or entity -- which is more akin to SR banishing, cleansing, or astral combat.

Does this mesh with others' experiences, or do you any of you experience a basis for Drain the way SR handles it?

--K
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John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 02:11 AM
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I am so going to laugh my ass off if the Awakening actually happens and you don't really get any majyckyl powyrz.
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 02:31 AM
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Now now, be nice -- just because you don't believe in his(?) faith is no reason to ridicule it.

Although I must admit, it's never stopped me from heckling the Catholics...

-Siege

Edit: And while I don't practice such faith personally, it's a common theme in fiction and most RPG systems that casting spells runs the risk of taxing a user's energy.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 29 2004, 03:01 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
it's a common theme in fiction and most RPG systems that casting spells runs the risk of taxing a user's energy.

Yeah. Look at Raistlin. I bet all 3 million of them are really drained after they cast their spells.
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krishcane
post Feb 29 2004, 03:02 AM
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Who are they?

--K
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Tziluthi
post Feb 29 2004, 03:26 AM
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Drain is a game mechanic, just like recoil, distance modifiers and street index, that limits the power of characters. That said, you can probably be sure that none of the game designers have actually performed magic, if indeed there is such a thing beyond the realm of fiction, so it is unlikely that they have anything to base these mechanics on.
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John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 04:08 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
Now now, be nice -- just because you don't believe in his(?) faith is no reason to ridicule it.

I have no idea what krishcane's faith even is. I do know that he's made a claim to having mystical powers that, if true, should be objectively verifiable. That is, not a matter of faith, but a matter of fact. And if it's not objectively verifiable, well, that's not very impressive magic in my book. One might even question whether it actually exists, or is merely a product of the practitioner's imagination.

Now, I'll admit that it's entirely possible that krishcane, if challenged, would be able to demonstrate said powers. However, given the number of self-proclaimed practitioners of majyck that I've encountered over the years (I've lost count, but it's been quite a few), and the number which have actually demonstrated any paranormal capabilities whatsoever (exactly zero), I'm giving him pretty poor odds.

See, if someone claims that God created the universe, I'll shrug and nod. I don't know, I can't know, so it's a matter of faith. However, if someone claims that God has given them the power to walk on water, I'm going to be breaking out the kiddie pool and demanding a demonstration, and if they can't cross it without getting their feet wet, I'll feel no remorse about mocking them as a fool, a fraud, or both.
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 04:24 AM
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To be clear, Krish didn't make any claims that readily lend themselves to being proven or disproven in my opinion. Kinda like Christians and their prayers, I suppose.

In fact, I likened his statements to the bulldrek of a pseudo-pagan-esque freak I have the misfortune to know who routinely makes vague allusions to his "powers as a magus". It only goes downhill from there.

But he (the freak) likens his claims of powers to a religious faith -- not unlike voodoo or Santaria. He knows (more or less) what I think of him and it's not an issue raised in discussion.

So, to summarize the reason for my initial post -- regardless of my opinion on the subject, I was trying to avoid the potential this thread had to erupt into a fireball.

-Siege
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Raptor1033
post Feb 29 2004, 05:15 AM
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well when i first starting reading this thread i thought it was a joke, but now.... siege, don't stop interfere! you and i both know how hilarious this would turn out if allowed to explode :evil:
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 05:16 AM
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Yeah well, I'm trying not to give the Admins any more headaches.

I remember the detonation of the Lounge and wasn't terribly amused.

Sorry to sound sanctimonious -- my head is killing me.

-Siege

Edit: :nyah:
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John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 05:41 AM
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The thing is, Shadowrun magic is readily objectively verifiable. My PC can levitate himself and other things, can hurl lightning from his hands, can kill people just by looking at them, and he's quite capable of demonstrating this, with fair reliability, to any skeptic that might require proof.

That being the case, if krishcane's original post does not constitute a claim to be able to do some things that are readily objectively verifiable, then what he's talking about is not particularly comparable to Shadowrun magic. Comparing them, therefore, is pretty pointless.

And if it does constitute a claim to be able to do some things that are objectively verifiable, I, for one, want to see the objective verification.

(And I'm trying to be reasonable and not break out the flamethrower... though I'll admit that my initial comment was a little on the inflammatory side. You should see some of the comments that I've typed but didn't post. I'd also have trouble believing that krishcane didn't see this coming.)
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 06:09 AM
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Woah...deja vu.

Fabu, glad that's settled.

-Siege
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Glyph
post Feb 29 2004, 06:18 AM
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Shadowrun magic is very explicitly NOT based on any real-world religions, probably precisely so they could avoid that kind of controversy. Now, various religions with a tradition of "magic" have meshed their belief systems in with magic as it works after the awakening, but you also have people who take a rationalist approach to it, or follow their own ideosyncritic belief systems, and they can cast spells too.

Any kind of belief system can be used as a basis for magic in Shadowrun - it is the belief, not what the belief is in, that lets the awakened character tap into the magic. So, I don't look for any real similarities between Shadowrun magic and anything in the real world - despite the gritty cyberpunk setting, it is high-fantasy magic: tossing fireballs, flying through the air, creating magical force fields, etc.
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Pathwalker
post Feb 29 2004, 07:42 AM
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Only would get tired doing something that would take away from ones own energy. Focusing ones energy would raise it, were as just calling out for any spirits in the area to come help you wouldn't take much if any.

QUOTE
or do you any of you experience a basis for Drain the way SR handles it?

No, I don't roll dice every time I banish negative energy or get rid of someone's pain to see if I pass out on the ground afterwards, and I'd probably look quite silly if I did. :D

As far as RL magic being possible, minor things at best. If you want actual proof, take careful look at some martial arts. Very basic form of energy focus I learned from such:
1.put arm out, keep muscles relaxed, have someone hold both upper and lower arm and bend arm back at elbow.
2.Repeat, keep muscles tight, try to resist them bending it back.
3.Repeat, imagine solid line/chain between hand and whatever wall your pointing at, keep muscles loose.

Now, if done right, 3 they can't bend your arm back, 1 and 2 they can. Since 2 obviously using more physical force then 3, if anyone else can come up with a logical explination without including magic/energy, I'd like to hear it.
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RedmondLarry
post Feb 29 2004, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (John Campbell @ Feb 28 2004, 08:08 PM)
If someone claims that God has given them the power to walk on water, I'm going to be breaking out the kiddie pool and demanding a demonstration, and if they can't cross it without getting their feet wet, I'll feel no remorse about mocking them as a fool, a fraud, or both.

I have walked on water in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and in the mountains near Denver without getting my feet wet. I claim no special powers, and am willing to teach the technique. Some who try it get hurt, but with practice I feel safe using my technique most anywhere.

Neither my Dad nor I did it during our last trips to the Holy Lands, but I recently did it in Texas.
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John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 10:12 AM
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Come to think of it, I've driven on water...

I didn't take any Drain, either.
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Diesel
post Feb 29 2004, 10:21 AM
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I broke my arm walking on water. That's physical drain there, boys and girls.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 29 2004, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (Pathwalker)
Since 2 obviously using more physical force then 3, if anyone else can come up with a logical explination without including magic/energy, I'd like to hear it.

Do you really want to know? Obviously in 3 the person is still keeping his muscles tight to resist, consciously or not. If someone is telling you they don't, they are lying.

If using imagination to make up a chain helps, it only proves that the brain really has a great deal of control over your whole body, which shouldn't be that surprising anyway. Compare the survival rate of cancer for people who believe they will survive to the people who believe they'll die of it. Or compare the general health of people suffering from depression to people who are generally cheery. Absolutely nothing magical about that whatsoever.

QUOTE (krishkane)
Who are they?

Isn't Raistlin, the legendary goth-nerd-weakling-mage archetype from Weiss & Hickmann's Dragonlance books, cool anymore? I know that name is still used quite a lot online... And he used to cough up blood after every fireball.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 29 2004, 12:53 PM
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 01:13 PM
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Yep -- Raistlin being a singular entity, as opposed to the "they".

Unless he's referring to the hordes of posers copying the name.

-Siege
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 29 2004, 01:28 PM
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I am referring exactly to that particular horde. I am certain a significant portion of them also believe they cough up blood when they toss fireballs.
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 01:46 PM
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Ahhhh.

-Siege
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Raptor1033
post Feb 29 2004, 02:22 PM
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hehe i know someone out of said horde. he bleached his hair, originally black, and got specially made gold-colored contacts with an hour-glass shaped pupil. he looked reaaaaaally funny cause the bleach job wasn't particularly well done, plus he had a wide head, and seeing a guy looking like that working in the grill of a mcdonald's is almost thought-provoking :)
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Siege
post Feb 29 2004, 02:34 PM
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Yeah, the thought being..."How hungry am I?"

Followed rapidly by, "The nearest exit is..."

That's an image I'm going to have a hard time shaking.

-Siege
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Zazen
post Feb 29 2004, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (krishcane)
Just a quick question for those of you who practice magic IRL... I've been practicing for a number of years, and I've never experienced anything like the SR concept of Drain when I'm conjuring or energy-moving. If anything, I feel invigorated after my work.

You're obviously not doing it correctly :P
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Crimson Jack
post Feb 29 2004, 06:31 PM
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What exactly is meant by energy-moving?
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