 Ah Ha! I fixed cyberlimbs, maybe... tell me what you think |
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 Oct 20 2006, 01:56 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299  |
Fortune: I can't find that post that mentioned hacking atribute limits. I'm not yet familiar enough with the wireless world to have any House Rules for hacking limbs but I would like to note some things I've found that people may/may not be aware of.
This means that i'm not worried at all about someone else hacking my arm and beating me to death, or "recalibrating" the range link in my smartlink. (which is sad in a way because there's so much oppertunity for hilarity there)
Cyber limbs aren't listed specificly but I'd probably give them a Device rating of 3 like headware. I might rule that a cyberlimb's OS would automaticly incclude Encryption3, and DataBomb3. As for hacking atribute limits. I can't see that it could be necessary. Even if there were some actuators installed that you're not useing. You'd allready have full access to the calibration software incluced with the limb. Fortune you've been around long enough that you allready know all this what are you planning? |
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Oct 20 2006, 02:33 AM
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#27
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That wasn't really what I meant at all. But as it turns out, upon actually re-reading the thread, that it wasn't your rules that I was questioning anyway (see previous comment about being up all night ... still haven't slept yet ;) ) ... it was The Jopp ... :oops: :) To wit ...
And my questions are ... [a] What are the specific rules for unlocking the limb's potential? ... and ... [b] What limits do the cyberlimbs have after the cracking is successful? |
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Oct 20 2006, 07:48 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Actually there is something that has been bothering me about cyberware. In the previous editions it seems that they are saying that cyberware was causing essence loss because it was an electrical connection with your CNS. That was why cyberlimbs requiring considerable connection with the CNS to direct it took a full point but it didn't matter the size because the same number of nerves were connected (ie a troll limb doesn't cost more then a human's limb).
Okay so why does cybertorso cost so much essence? Isn't it mostly just a can with some articulation? It acts as a frame for the cyberlimbs but I could see an articulated frame as a sort of back brace that supports the arms and doesn't kill your back. So what is the CNS connections about? I mean I can even see some of the cyberskull with the jaw but Ican't it all that much essence loss. |
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Oct 20 2006, 08:44 AM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
You are aware that cyberlimbs provide tactile sensory data for any of the skin surface they replace, right? The torso's got a lot of surface area. |
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Oct 20 2006, 10:17 AM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
The main reason for that part was to remove the excessive and rather pointless tweaking of attributes that a character would have to do just to gain a basic attribute. Cracking the limb would be up to the GM in an extended test per system (Hacking/Cyberware etc) I would say that if the limbs attributes are “unlocked” then the limb would have whatever attribute value (STR/AGI etc) the character desires (within limits) and depending on the actual action the character tries to do apply a minus to the characters dicepool equal to (Character Attribute – Limb Attribute). A human with AGI 3 who attempts to pick up a small coin would get an actual agility of 9 but only a dicepool modifier of -6. STR would be a problem if they want to shake someones hand and they are not really thinking of how strong they are (as above with STR of 3 but cyberlimb strength of 9) |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:04 PM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think that's a pretty decent way of going about it. So you would still max all 'unlocked' cyberlimbs at racial Max? Racial Max +X? Also, maybe I'm just dense right now, but I can't fully grasp what you mean here ...
I understand modifiers in some situations, but where would the benefit be for a character to use his augmented Agility of 9 with a -6 Dice Pool penalty over using his normal Agility of 3 with no penalty? |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:16 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, I basically pulled that out off my ass. So far I’m not really sure how to implement a penalty when you feel like you are squeezing as normal when you shake someones hand but you are in reality three times stronger than normal. Perhaps this would be more apt. Whenever the character does NOT want to implement his exceptionally strong/quick limb he would get (Limb Attribute-Character Attribute)/2 negative dice pool modifier for fine motor functions and NOT wanting to squeeze someone to death. The same would apply for reacting out of surprise when you whip around to a sound behind you and you end up spinning 435 degrees and not entirely sure in what way you are facing due to your faster-than-your-mind-can-grasp movement. Then you have the problem with being in a hurry and ripping away your car door because you got a bit careless or removing the steering wheel or handelbars of your bike because your reacted a bit faster than what you had planned. Even someone who IS used to being superstrong would still have to be very careful because unlike a natural attribute you are not fully in control of that strength or quickness. Acting out with ones full ability in combat would probably not be a liability since you are focused on what you want to do but a negative dicepool modifier would definitely be fitting if they want to pull their punches. |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:30 PM
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#33
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Suggestion: Incorporate the idea of the jopp and allow cyberlimbs to be fitted to the non-cyber attributes of the wearer. This is possible without changing the hardware up to natural limit-1. Overdrive is a simple cybernetics check. If you overdrive speed or strength without cybertorso, you take (used rating-natural rating) DV stun, resisted with natural body.
Ingame reason: The standarised cyberlimb would have to fit all customers except the exceptional. Athletes suffer injuries too. Mismatching is easy, but generally not wanted. Outgame reason: Easy. No limit for most characters. If its a limit, the difference can now be payed without filling the cyberlimb up. |
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Oct 20 2006, 03:51 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
Maybe i just don't understand Joop's ideas but I think he's saying that you can pay for a strength 3 cyberarm then make a hacking extended test to get a strength 5 cyber arm. which means that you had a strength 5 cyberarm all along. They just had it turned down.
That's like asking Dell to sell you a desktop with an UNDERCLOCKED conroe processor because your only going to use it for word prosessing. If I hack into the firmware of my 4 banger car's ECU and upload firmware from a V6 do you think I'll be able to drive faster? Or to put it in shadowrun terms Maybe the crapy responce of my Meta Link comm is realy just a software issue. If I hack my own comlink can I increase the responce and signal? NO. it's not software. It's hardware. a strength 4 limb has a strength of 4 because it only has rating 4 actuators. you can't make a 4 cylinder engine into a 6 cylinder engine without adding at least 2 cylinders. You can't make a strength 4 cyber arm into a strenght 6 cyberarm without adding some mechanical hardware. |
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Oct 20 2006, 08:50 PM
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#35
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Within conventional wisdom, you are correct.
An economically knowledgeable person might suggest that the cost of producing several hardware variants would be higher than producing one model per needed size class and customizing it by software. Several years ago NVIDIA was serving the low-cost marked with a so-called "damaged goods-policy". Low-end graphic cards (forgot the type) had all the same chips and makeup, only some chips were not fully connected. Customers not willing to pay full price didn´t get full performance. (Note this is not NVIDIAS term for said policy, nor is it out of order with common business strategies. It´s just rarely economically feasible to do so). A rating 4 cyberlimb may be a rating 4 cyberlimb because more would tear the shoulder of the customer, resulting in a lost trial and bad publicity for the producing company. Hack at your own risk. |
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Oct 20 2006, 09:01 PM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Basically what he's saying is that all cyberlimbs are made at one strength rating. I would assume this would be the maximum rating for each racial type, but I'm not sure about this part. When a person purchases a limb, limiters are activated that keep the limb within the boundaries of the new user's normal strength. These limiters can be cracked with some (?) difficulty, thereby allowing access to the limb's full potential. Right Jopp? I just want to know what that full potential is. |
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Oct 21 2006, 03:20 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
Remember that a synthetic limb is nearly undetectable to visual inspection. Were not talking about robot arms here.
based on what I know of prosthetics today. I can't immagine that cyberlimbs (other than used ware) exist as complete assemblies. Even for an unaugmented cyberlimb there are just too many variables that have to be matched for comfortable use. do all cyber legs, lower legs, and cyber feet have the same shoe size? Would you immagine that the medical comunity would produce a unisex cyber arm and if so does it have man hands or woman hands? This is nothing like a GPU. Which is sweet, cuz I'll cry if next years dual SLI set up costs Twenty Thousand Dollars I immagine that there are "Stock Parts" for cyberlimbs, not assembled "Stock Limbs". I mean it's entirely feasable that there are standarized molds for the equivelants of the radius and ulna in a cyber arm frame. They probably come in different sizes that vary in length and girth with a varience in steps several milimeters. Basicly; a patient needs a replacement arm. The med/tech takes carefull measurements of the remaining limb and uses standardized parts of one or several manufacturers to assemble a limb that very closely matches the length, girth, weight, ballance, and sensory biometry of the natural limb. |
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Oct 21 2006, 04:31 AM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And then a technician or computer sets the 'limiter' on the motors and servos and whatnot that control the actual strength of the limb to match that of the patient. As you say, not one standard limb. But there needn't be 8 or more different levels of 'driving mechanisms' where one would do the job. If you are thinking of it from a corp perspective, it could be seen to be a hell of a lot cheaper to use only one level of strength, and then limit each limb via Jopp's method. |
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Oct 21 2006, 05:56 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
I give up.
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Oct 21 2006, 06:40 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Of course, this would only be true if there was enough of a market for cyberlimbs for large economies of scale. Cyberlimbs would have to be both cheap and significantly better than original flesh to people to get voluntary replacements. And would have to be much cheaper and about as good as flesh for industrial accident replacements.
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Oct 21 2006, 06:47 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I think that you could do it either way depending on the feel of the game you are going for. It's not that you couldn't do it or that it wouldmake sense to size everything but it depends on if the campaign is gritty and uncaring on the side of the corps or if you are having them nicer.
If you are doing blackmarket then your going to get a arm that is close to right but may not really match your other arm. They could spray paint it to get the color closer but anyone shaking your hand would get a notice test in my opinion. Now if you have a high lifestyle then you would get more details correct. I would say not charge any different but make it closer to normal depending on your source and your lifestyle level (consider it an incidental cost for high lifestyle and maybe not available at low). |
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Oct 21 2006, 07:10 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If it's gritty and uncaring then you have lots of people missing limbs and maybe, if they are lucky, using obvious non-cyber prostheses. It's cheaper to not do anything than to do something, if there are always more workers to replace those who get maimed. And by the time you invest in medical care and surgical implantation it isn't going to cast much more to do a good job that gains loyalty. |
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Oct 21 2006, 10:49 AM
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#43
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
OneTrickPony, you are right in that replacement of one limb requires much more finetuning than replacement of both. SR does away with that level of complexity and just has one price.
For motor controls and strength it will not be feasible to use more than one set of parts. The cost of stronger servos is not that high, and you are customising enough parts to fit length, shoe size etc. I imagine that most of your money goes to a myriad of sensors allowing you to feel the prostetic as part of your body. And it will be hard to cut corners there. If you wanted to model different qualities of cyberlimbs, you could introduce modifiers for tests involving fine motor control of the limb. Again, too much complexity for basic SR. My point is just that you don´t stand to gain much by using smaller motors. Neither space in the limb nor money for the company. |
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Oct 22 2006, 04:01 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
You mean One price for each grade of Ware right? (standard -- Delta) And one price for each point of atribute enhancent for each attribute. So a cyberlimb with 3/3/4 attributes has one price, and a cyberlimb with 4/4/7 attributes has a different price, and a partial cyberlimb with 4/3/3 attributes has another different price, but the cyberlimb with 5/5/5 still hase one price and a synthetic cyberlimb with 3/3/4 attributes has one price but it's diferent from all the others, and a cyber leg with 6/6/6 armor, a built in smuggleing compartment has one price, and an Alpha ware limb with 3/3/4 atributes has one price................ ... ... ... ... ... ... and that Now that I think about it I agree that each cyberlimb only has one price and that it's not really that complex to figure out what that price may be because the price of the cyberlimb depends on wether or not the cyberlimb has ATRIBUTE ENHANCEMENTS.:mad: Hmm, apparently I don't give up. |
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Oct 22 2006, 06:43 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Type "O" grown limbs ARE mass produced, gene tailored to not induce immuno issues in 99% of patients (the other 1% being magicals) and kept in cryo storage until needed |
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Oct 22 2006, 12:45 PM
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#46
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I read through about six posts of this and then decided not to even try in the first place. I'd get out now, if I were you. |
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Oct 22 2006, 02:09 PM
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#47
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
No, I mean that the price for one arm is half the price of two arms.
Two arms would be less expensive per limb because you´d not need to tune the replacement to the capabilities of the flesh counterpart. |
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Oct 28 2006, 06:14 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
Slightly off-topic : I wonder if we can't consolidate some of these cyberlimb threads.
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