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> bound spirits and services
fool
post Oct 22 2006, 07:47 PM
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It says that bound spirits will continue to perform a service for as long as they are able. This seems a little too powerful. I could have a spirit performing a power on me for hundreds of years as long is it stayed bound (and I stay alive).
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Slithery D
post Oct 22 2006, 07:54 PM
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Yes. I'm tempted to borrow and modify the "24 hours hanging around costs a service" rule for bound elementals in SR3 and have an extra service lapse every day whether the spirit is doing something or just chillin' in astral space. If you're a real dick you could even have an extra spirit used up every dusk/dawn.
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Dentris
post Oct 22 2006, 08:23 PM
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I would say you can have a spirit lending you its power for as long as you want. The spirits, however, would need to stay relatively close to you in astral space with a visible astral link between you and the spirit, thus being an easy target for banishing/attack. A disrupted spirit is unable to sustain a power after all.
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Slithery D
post Oct 22 2006, 08:30 PM
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How are they an easier target when you're around to help them out if they're attacked?

In any case, remote service would eliminate the closeness requirement. If you're willing to lose a spirit slot you can have an earth spirit dig out the foundation of a mountain for as long as it takes unless you impose some limits.
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Dentris
post Oct 22 2006, 09:35 PM
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They are easier than when they are on the metaplanes...
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2006, 01:01 AM
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Spirits have a maximum number of targets they can sustain most of their powers on. So by having your movement on for 400 years from your spirit you aren't particularly increasing the number of movements your spirit can sustain. Same with Guard or Innate Spell: Increase Willpower.

It's not something you couldn't do by summoning an unbound spirit every day and detailing it to that task. So really, what's the problem?

Bound Spirits are an accounting trick. The new capabilities you gain are generally worthless (spell sustaining doesn't last long enough to tell your teammates that you are using it), and the old abilities are... old abilities. The biggest unbound spirits you can throw around are massively larger than the biggest bound spirits, so binding really isn't a "power option". What it is, is convenient. Sure, it costs thousands of :nuyen: and uses hours instead of seconds and causes such incredibly random drain that even great dragons have a legitimate chance of death from supposedly minor conjurations... but each service is forever.

When you go through all that shit to have Guard up, you have guard up! In two months time when you're sitting in a swimming pool in the Carib League, you have Guard up! And three days from now when you have to pinch a loaf at sundown in an Applebees bathroom, you have Guard up!

That's the whole point. I honestly have no idea why people are flipping out about that facet of spirits. It's not game breaking, it's just convenient.

-Frank
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Demerzel
post Oct 23 2006, 01:08 AM
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Applebee's Still exists in 2070?
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BookWyrm
post Oct 23 2006, 01:57 AM
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It could be worse, by 2070, all restaurants could be.....Taco Bell. :shudder:
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Big D
post Oct 23 2006, 02:16 AM
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Wait... you can give a bound spirit a task with indefinite (as opposed to just really long) duration and it'll keep doing it forever?

I thought that was what long-term binding was for, and that's only 366/367 days...
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Edward
post Oct 23 2006, 02:17 AM
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Guard may not be significant but I have a high probability of successfully summoning a force 9 spirit of man, that will give me inc reflexes, combat sense and improved attribute intuition (for Sharman drain, also improves initiative) and whatever its standard powers are sustained on me for the foreseeable future for only 9000 nuyen (note at time of casting lower force spirits of man where sustaining increased intuition and increased willpower on me, and I have edge waiting for both drain roles, I wont loose consciousness)

Edward
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Kremlin KOA
post Oct 23 2006, 02:33 AM
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Eh why waste the money

for :nuyen: 2000 I can summon a force 9 unbound, have it use those powers on me, then give it a wad of cash and tell it to go to the local casino and play blackjack conservatively until just before sundown, returning to give me my winnings (chance for it to use all that edge)

since it is on remote service, it does not count as my one unbound spirit
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Slithery D
post Oct 23 2006, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
since it is on remote service, it does not count as my one unbound spirit

Don't mind me, I'm just banging my head against the wall.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2006, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Oct 22 2006, 09:33 PM)
since it is on remote service, it does not count as my one unbound spirit

Don't mind me, I'm just banging my head against the wall.

Word on the street is that particular loop will be closed as soon as the Magic Errata ever comes out.

-Frank
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Cold-Dragon
post Oct 23 2006, 03:24 AM
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Here's a better question: are spirits, bound, unbound, or free, even allowed to play the slots?

I suppose a free spirit can get around that snag, but what's to stop the unbound spirit from ghosting into the machine, examining it until it figures out how it works, then using a power to make a killing?

Someone upstairs will get mighty pissed at being cheated, and a spirit is very likely NOT to have an understanding of why they're angry for it collecting money for its summoner.
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Big D
post Oct 23 2006, 04:08 AM
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I would assume that casinos are restricted to metahuman only, with possible exceptions for free spirits who were known to the casino.

Heck, they probably have mondo mana barriers around casinos to keep people from casing them with spirits, or using a watcher to peek at the dealer's hand.

For that matter, I'm sure they have a bunch of house spirits watching for magic use... there will be no mind control spells inside a casino unless a player starts winning too much.
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Kremlin KOA
post Oct 23 2006, 04:18 AM
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maybe a restriction on spell and power use

BUT

Vegas is in the NAN and there are casinos in Aztlan, where spirits have rights and can get citizenship
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2006, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Eh why waste the money

for :nuyen: 2000 I can summon a force 9 unbound, have it use those powers on me, then give it a wad of cash and tell it to go to the local casino and play blackjack conservatively until just before sundown, returning to give me my winnings (chance for it to use all that edge)

since it is on remote service, it does not count as my one unbound spirit

I absolutely love this. :D :notworthy:
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Cold-Dragon
post Oct 23 2006, 04:23 AM
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If you love it, make sure you love it for a reason other than it 'being possible'. This is one of the big debates that vagueness made bigger still. It is only possible because we can't neccessarily tell if it's not possible.
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2006, 04:42 AM
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I don't love it because it's munchy. You should know me better than that by now. :(

I like it because it's imaginative.
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Big D
post Oct 23 2006, 05:09 AM
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y'know, I was thinking that surely this couldn't be right, but heck, the spirit in the chapter intro was tasked to use its powers all night.

Dang.

In some ways, this is far worse than the debate over whether Movement is the basis for the modern economy, because it directly impacts all gameplay; if you can just summon a few F6 Spirits of Man (at little or no drain) and have them cast spells and use powers on you, and then order them off to go guard your apartment (when you're out of range from it) all day, then why not buff up every morning in the alley behind the stuffer shack? IPs, reaction, even stat buffs can all be had for little or no drain, especially for a centering initiate.

This is wrong. I don't know how to fix it, but this is wrong.
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Kremlin KOA
post Oct 23 2006, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
I don't love it because it's munchy. You should know me better than that by now. :(

I like it because it's imaginative.

So only the imaginative get away with munchyness in your game?
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2006, 05:29 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
So only the imaginative get away with munchyness in your game?

It goes on a case-by-case basis. ;)
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2006, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Big D)
y'know, I was thinking that surely this couldn't be right, but heck, the spirit in the chapter intro was tasked to use its powers all night.

Dang.


Wow. That's really gratifying. Someone actually brought up that story in a debate. Thats awesome. Thank you.

Yeah, Jimmy No is able to summon an unbound spirit to provide him with Concealment, Guard, and Magical Guard that lasts until dawn and then go to sleep. That's what Summoning does.

Binding allows you to do the same thing but for several thousand :nuyen: and three times the drain you can benefit from those same powers even if you sleep in. It's pretty sweet.

---

Note: a spirit can't sustain a spell or power while waiting on a metaplane. So while you can benefit from Guard 24/7 for your whole life, if you ever want your spirit to take a metaplanar shortcut or purge yourself of magical auras to blend in - you need to invoke new services.

Also remember that Spirits of Man with Innate Spell are actually spellcasting, and that drain does not heal while you are concentrating on sustaining a spell. So while a large spirit can in fact cast a couple of spells on you, penalties accumulate and the spirit won't be good for much if it's doing that.

So there are limits. But there aren't specific limits as to how long you cn keep yourself under Guard or Movement if you have a bound spirit.

-Frank
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Big D
post Oct 23 2006, 08:16 AM
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Well, I can see why I would want to turn off Movement, Concealment, Armor, etc., but there are a few very passive spells out there (Combat Sense, Deflection, Improved Ability, Improved Reflexes) that I can't see anyone turning off, unless they were in a place where *any* sustained spell auras were frowned upon.

The spells and powers that interfere with "looking normal" could then be laid on by a daily-summoned unbound spirit or two, without having the karma cost of quickening.

One thing... if your spells get dispelled by a mage or a mana barrier, does it necessarily cost an extra set of services to get them put back up, or can you word your instructions so that the service includes replacing the spells if they are dropped without your order?

One more thing... if you have masking, does it work with spells cast on you that you did not cast yourself? I would think so, but I don't recall the text offhand.
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2006, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Big D @ Oct 23 2006, 06:16 PM)
Well, I can see why I would want to turn off Movement, Concealment, Armor, etc., but there are a few very passive spells out there (Combat Sense, Deflection, Improved Ability, Improved Reflexes) that I can't see anyone turning off, unless they were in a place where *any* sustained spell auras were frowned  upon.

Or walking into almost any public place with a Ward.

And yes, if the Spell(s) is dispelled or negated, it does indeed cost more services to have the Spirit recast it/them.
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