 bound spirits and services |
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 Oct 23 2006, 03:48 PM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Remember that when you set a spirit to cast and sustain spells on you that you are essentially losing he use of that spirit. It has a -2 penalty for each spell it is sustaining and its Drain won't go away until after the spells do. Further, each spell costs a service. If you're doing this with Unbound Spirits, you honestly won't have any spirits when you need them because you can only have one unbound spirit (the languageon page 178 that says that an unbound spirit on remote service doesn't count as your unbound spirit is an error). You seriously have to question whether you'd rather have a sustained spell or two or the use of a Force 3-6 bruiser following you around, and usually I'd prefer the latter.
Now, as to your other question of whether you can get spirits to turn spells back on as part of a single service - the answer is yes. Sort of. If you define the service not as "use power" (which is open ended in time) but as "physical service" (which is not), then you can get the spirit to use as many as all of its powers as many times as required with a single service. The problem being that this is a one task set up. You can have it fight a battle or help transport your car to the drop point in the Trans-Polar Aleut or whatever. That's one-way and one "task", which has always been defined pretty circularly. So that's not going to normally get you Improved Reflexes all night. It'll get you Improved Reflexes for one combat, and the spirit will turn them back on if they get dispelled. But as previously stated, I can think of much better uses for a Force 6 spirit than spending its life sustaining two spells on me. -Frank |
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Oct 23 2006, 05:50 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Slots outcomes today are generated electronically, not mechanically, so a spirit couldn't figure it out. I suppose it could be the case that the chip tells the mechanical parts what to display and the pay out triggers off those mechanical parts, letting you fool it by manipulating the mechanical bits, but that's a pretty easy design fix if so. What you really need is a sprite to jump into a networked slot machine. |
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Oct 23 2006, 07:50 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Do spirits face the -2 penalty for sustaining powers, as well as spells?
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Oct 23 2006, 08:14 PM
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#29
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Only if that power allows them to cast a spell. A Plant Spirit can maintain Magical Guard or Silence without taking a penalty (though these powers also have absolute target limits), but a Spirit of Man who sustains an innate spell takes a -2. -Frank |
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Oct 24 2006, 03:11 AM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
The way you get around the argument with the casino is to have the spirit playing poker. Use a task spirit with the skills gamboling and psychology (if your game to summon force 9 give it knowledge corporate so it understands why you’re doing it this way). With its gamboling skill the spirit will win consistently, with its psychology skill it will keep the other players at the table (loosing often enough to leave them thinking they have a chance) the house is taking a percentage of each pot so they don’t care if you win all the time. Also the spirit is sing no powers other than its skills so no amount of astral investigation will get it accused of cheating, it is not cheating. The use of spirit services is confusing, some say every use of a power counts as a service, some say anything you fraise as a single order is one service. For example, “keep the spells I gave you and the movement power active on me until I order otherwise”
got anything to back that up, it is a very significant change, removing the apparently intended ability to send a unbound spirit to do something distant and still have a spirit around. If I was going to house rule to solve the problem I would say that when you send a spirit on a remote service it stops performing all other services. Edward |
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Oct 24 2006, 03:21 AM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Frank stated earlier that the Powers-that-be are planning on fixing that in forthcoming errata. |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:37 AM
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#32
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The intention was that people would send their spirit out on a remote service and that then they'd have to summon a whole new spirit and suffer drain if they wanted to do anything good. In short, having an unbound spirit count as released was supposed to be a disadvantage.
What people actually do is summon mid-level spirits that they can conjure all day, and then send them all on the remote service to wait until noon and then go blitz the Aztlan border - causing each and every magician to be able to field an army of thousands with little or no effort or risk. That's... unfortunate. So yeah, that's going to be errataed. The exact wording movs around, but the gist is that sending unbound spirits on remote services is something you want to avoid. You can't give it any more instructions and you can't summon new spirits until you dismiss it or the task is done. -Frank |
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Oct 24 2006, 01:55 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm not sure what good being highly skilled at cavorting and frolicking will be at a poker table, but assuming it's gambling instead of gamboling, I think the house would still not like it. Sure, they get paid either way, but if nobody ever comes to the casino because every table has a force 9 Maverick spirit at it, money goes away. |
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Oct 25 2006, 06:10 PM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Whiteland, IN Member No.: 9,169 |
Doesn't need an errata. It specifically says that it does count toward the total number of bound or unbound spirits on page 179 right hand side paragraph 5. The last sentence before it mentions glitches. gunsnammo |
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Oct 25 2006, 06:23 PM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
It does need an errata because p. 178 specifically says they no longer count towards limits. The two entries contradict themselves and will be corrected in upcoming printings and the errata.
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Nov 10 2006, 07:04 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Speaking of services and potential errata action -- When you bind a spirit, are the new services gained from the Binding roll cumulative with the services gained when the spirit was originally summoned and unbound? Or are those unbound services lost and only the bound services matter? My group is of two minds on the matter: 1) They are cumulative; if you summon an unbound spirit with X services (due to your X net hits) then turn around and bind the spirit with Y net hits, then that spirit now owes you X+Y-1 services. The "-1" is because the first net hit when binding doesn't get you extra services, it just binds the spirit to you. 2) They are not cumulative; if you summon and unbound spirit with X services then turn around and bind the spirit with Y net hits, then that spirit now owes you Y-1 services. Note that if you made only 1 net hit on the binding then technically that spirit owes you zero services. The second option gets sticky in that spirits typically depart on their next available action when they owe you no services. Does that mean your binding is blown unless you get two net hits? |
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Nov 10 2006, 11:01 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Having gone the extra length and actually read the SR4 binding rules, I can answer this one. BBB pg. 180:
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Nov 10 2006, 11:21 PM
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#38
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
As Slithery implied, they are cumulative. -Frank |
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Nov 11 2006, 09:53 AM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
While your replies are entirely true, they don't actually answer the question; so allow me to rephrase. It's obvious (particularly to we who have quoted every bit of the RAW multiple times at each other for the past week) that the services are cumulative -- it's what they are cumulative with that's the sticking point. Is the baseline equal to the original unbound services? Is the baseline zero? In a (vain?) hope to stave off further reflexive snarkiness, I offer that my personal opinion is that it adds to the unbound services. However, as the text is not explicit enough in that area for some, I was hoping for more decisive insight. Worries over game balance is a primary motivator in the other camp's argument against "cumulative with existing services." Someone with Summoning:6 and Binding:1 effectively gets more up-front bang for their buck with mid-grade spirits than a binding specialist with Summoning:1 and Binding:6 might (Magic ratings being equal). However, I fully realize that game balance historically isn't a design feature in SR and explicit wording is less of a standard expectation and more of a happy surprise. So thanks anyway for trying. |
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Nov 11 2006, 10:57 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Of course assuming a Magic rating of 4-5, when Binding Force 4+ Spirits, the Summoning 6/Binding 1 conjurer is also taking a bigger risk in the form of (magically unhealable) Drain (given the harsher mechanic involved in Binding). Then there's the waste materials/cost, and the time of course. |
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Nov 11 2006, 08:40 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
I'm crurious about something. Does anyone play in a game where the GM play up how Spirits dislike being bound? There really isn't a game mechanic for it, but if you go around binding spirts a lot, does your GM impose any penalties for doing so?
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Nov 11 2006, 08:49 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Those spirits probably don't have to worry too much if the summoner dies pretty quick, but it is listed that spirits have a dislike of being bound, particularly if they weren't really needed in the first place. A spirit isn't going to take it as badly if you offer compensation or else are very polite with your 'please put this collar on' moments. Being spirits can also tell if you've been a naughty summoner, it's doubly true you want to be on good terms, or one of them will attempt to squash you post haste when they have an excuse.
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Nov 11 2006, 08:59 PM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I know a bunch of yu are thinking "But Skill has no effect at all on drain!" - but Synner's assessment is still true. A character with a Binding of 1 and a Magic of 6 is going to successfully Bind a Force 4 spirit less than half the time. A character with a Binding of 6, on the other hand, will succeed in Binding with most attempts. That means that even though the average number of services from a spirit that is summoned and then bouns by our character with a Summoning of 1 and a Binding of 6 is the same as the number of services gained by the character with the Summoning of 6 and the Binsding of 1 - the fact is that the Binding 6 character is going to sit through many less failed bindings - and that's a lot less drain, money, and time down the toilet. When you frag your summoning test, your spirit doesn't show up, and that sucks. But you can try again 3 seconds later and often you won't take any drain. Binding almost always causes drain, and if it doesn't work you're out hours of your life, thousands of :nuyen:, and a punch in the nuts with nothing to show for it. -Frank |
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Nov 11 2006, 11:51 PM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 27-February 03 Member No.: 4,171 |
"Is it Friday already?" |
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Nov 12 2006, 12:22 AM
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#45
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Usual Suspects?
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Nov 13 2006, 01:46 AM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 27-February 03 Member No.: 4,171 |
Yes! |
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Nov 13 2006, 02:03 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Azralon: The rules are pretty clear to me: There are no 'bound' and 'unbound' services, there a SERVICES owed. There ARE bound and unbound spirits. Mage gets X net hits on his summoning test, he has a 'unbound' spirit that owes him X services. Now if mages attempts a binding and gets Y Net success (if Y >0) the mage now has a 'BOUND' spirit that owes him X+Y Services. Its like saying if the Sammy has a clip of 20 rounds ammuntions in his SMG and extends the stock for +1 Recoil modidication, how many rounds of ammuntions does he has. Bound / Unbound has no effect on services. Bound / Unbound controls when (if) the spirit naturally goes bye-bye and controls what services can be spent on... it does NOT change services in the least. |
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Nov 13 2006, 02:43 AM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well explained, laughingowl.
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Nov 13 2006, 03:28 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, there *are* bound and unbound services :P behold, i show unto thee the table on page 179 of the BBB! (or rather, i'm actually just telling you about it, because it doesn't quote well, even with the code function) that being said, the difference between the two types of services are essentially this: if a spirit is bound, it can perform bound services (which include the unbound services). if a spirit is unbound, it can perform unbound services only. the above answer was, however, correct for all intents and purposes, just not quite technically correct (that is, you have a spirit which owes X number of services, and the only deciding factor of what kind of services it can perform is whether it is currently bound or not... it has nothing to do with whether it was bound or not when it was made to owe services... but there are, in fact, bound and unbound services ;) ) |
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Nov 13 2006, 05:46 AM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Well that table on p179 says, "Unbound Spirit Services" and "Bound Spirit Services"
So really it is not saying that some of these services are bound services, and some are unbound services. It is a list of services, of a very generic type, that are assigned to unbound spirits or bound spirits. But that's all just semantics isn't it? |
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