Change to combat spells, This time looking for opions :-) Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[laughingowl]

Obviously many have seen my other post and the post flurry it started. Trying to keep the 'intent' style but also limit it somewhat (and make it combat spells work closer to every other type of spell).

What do people think of this house rule:


Combat Spells:

Base DV equals the total hits on the spellcasting test (capped by force of spell as always since this is the maximum hits you can have).

Applied Damage equals: Base DV + Net hits.


Every other spell type Force does nothing directly for the spell (save making it harder to dispel) but raises the 'potential' for success. The 'casting' is what determines how powerful it is.

This change would weaken mages somewhat, but follow the established concept for all other spells types and be more consistent with the other types of spells.

No longer is a force 12 spell (if it works) guaranteed to do 13 boxes of damage... WHile it still has the potential to do a base DV of 12, it requires the caster to get 12 success to get the base DV of 12.

This seems to follow how other spells work much closer.

While it obviously does 'weaken' the mage somewhat, it only really becomes a problem at the huge overcast spells, which is where most people will agree it can get a little silly.

[Fortune]

As I implied in the other thread, I think it sucks the life out of Direct Combat Spells, totally screwing the Magicians.

[toturi]

Overcasting has its own sets of drawbacks and I think that the combat spells' drain values are balanced to their strengths. If you weaken the effects of Direct Combat Spells, then you'd need to look at lowering the Drain as well.

[Glyph]

You would be severely weakening combat spells, especially compared to things such as firearms, which do have a base damage, often a pretty high one. Would you be combining this with your interpretation of the rules which lets the target make an additional damage resistance test after making the spell resistance test? If so, combat spells will be all but useless.

[Garrowolf]

I did a few things to balence out the power level a bit.

First off I capped Magic at 9. You can initiate up to your magic rating up you can't raise your Magic rating itself above 9.

Then I capped overcasting at Magic + 3.

Then I added an additional type of overcasting called "Pushing a Spell". This allows you to cast a spell at a force less then or equal to your magic rating but to greater effect. It still causes the shift to physical damage. You can't Push and Overcast at the same time.

Pushing a spell gives you your force as base damage + successes. Your successes are still limited by your force but this means you can potentially do double your force in damage with a good roll.

Your drain is Force + Drain Modifiers, not Force/2. It is harder and potentially more dangerous to cast this way but it is very effective. Because of the caps on magic there is a hard limit on spell power levels.

This brings it more in line with the SR3 Deadly damage spells but people have a choice on what drain amount they want to take.

If you want to you could make the ability to Push a Spell be a metamagic technique if you wanted to limit it.

[laughingowl]

How so?

Non-overcast spells: Force 6 < for starting mages.

Most any mage build will get 6+ GROSS hits and do exactly the same damage..


What it does limit is high level overcast spells (well statistically force spells > 1/3 your total casting dice pool).


However as other threads are pointed out as they exist right now a 'noob' mage actually has a pretty good chance of totally dropping just about any listed creature in the rules up to and including the 'base' stats for a great dragon.

ALL other spells the 'spell casting' test determines the strength of the spell NOT the force, the force only sets the maximum effect.

Why do combat spells get stronger from force NOT potential for being stronger.

[cybertrucker]

i launched a smart thermal smoke grenade blinding the mage that was casting those powerful combat spells then proceeded to shoot him from cover using ultrasound site smart goggles...It worked well. Thank you Ares alpha with APDS ammo, with all that smart gun technology you saved my bacon!

[laughingowl]

Hmm well first.

I have never stated I intended to use the damage resist for direct damage; jsut a in-depth reading gives a possiblity that they SHOULD.

I totally agree that BOTH would drastically weaken and in fact gimp mages.

However this as a stand-alone I do not think would weaken normal mage combat.

My problem is two-fold in looking at them:

1) No other spell gains power from 'force' but rather spellcasting sucesses. Raising the force of a direct combat spell by 1 is the equivilant of THREE dice on the 'reistance' roll.

2) Direct Combat spells (when pushed) are very much all or nothing. A newbie mage that can safely (my bleed a little but minor wounds) be relatively assured of doing 13+ stun damage to even a great dragon is pretty darn powerfull.

With this change that same noob mage would likely be doing 8-10 (minimum) damage. still not bad, but still a very reasonable hit.

I am not sure I like changing 'overcasting' rules since that can seriously limit the ability to do some other spells. (anyone try increase body on a troll :-) to me the only real painful place overcast comes is combat spells and that is because force measures strength not the potential for strength.


Well wanted peoples opions on this one, and despite others seems to think overcasting (especially) is overpowered, looks like so far people dont like this one. Although think I will actually run it in my next game and see how it fully works out. Working the number 'in my head' doesnt seem like it will change the average one bit for 'normal' casting and will only weaken drastic overcasting and does follow the precedent set by all other spells closer.

Garrowolf:

While you limits work very well for players. Is tha magic 9 cap hard.

What about the old force 12 spirit of man. Is it magic 9, or 12, overcast to 15?

[Garrowolf]

The magic cap is for metahumans. Dragons and great form spirits and what ever other powerful magical baddies you want can go higher. That is part of the point. I wanted any PC magic users to know that they are not the top of the magical food chain. That reality check exsists for every other character type but magic just kept on going so I decided to stop it.

I haven't sat down and worked out what would happen with pushing a spell other then a combat spell. I guess that it wouldn't work so it may be a combat only technique.

the thing about trolls is I use a rule that says that when a metahuman increases their attributes that have a bonus they pay for the increase without the bonus. This way they are not screwed when spending karma in game. I would do the same for the spell Increase Attribute.

[laughingowl]

[Big D]

[laughingowl]

[laughingowl]

OK since the vast majority see this is too weakening.

What about.

Combat spells base damage equal: MAGIC + net hits (capped by force)

You are assured of doing you magic damage (if it works) and overcasting can up this IF you can well; however an overcast is by no means an instant kill.


Note this would be a standalone. Not intended for other changes (over casting rules, etc).

So a powerbolt-6 cast by a magic 6 mage: with 2 net hits:

Damge (Base damage 6+2 = 8, capped at 6) + net hits = 8.

If cast at force 8 instead:

Damage (base damage 6+2=8 capped at 8) + net hits = 10

If cast at force 12:

Damage (base damge 6+2 = 8) + net hits = 10.

non-overcast work exactly the same way.

Overcasting now has limits based on your spellcasting skill.

Still makes 'combat' spell works totally differnt then every other spell, but limits overcasting and puts them a little closer inline to other spells.

[laughingowl]

[ShadowDragon]

This might be balanced if you forget that casting is a complex action. Direct combat spells have a nice punch to them, but you can't fire off as many spells as a sammy can fire off bullets.

If you want to balance direct combat spells with indirect, try buffing indirect somehow.

[Garrowolf]

9 is the magic cap so Force 12 is only possible with overcasting. I don't allow spirits aiding casters to increase the Force, only add dice.

I am also harsh on characters that get cyberware and have magic. Each point of magic that they loose to cyberware increases their casting threshold by that much. Geasa does not remove this. If you take physical damage from drain and you have a cyberlimb then you have to check for damage to the cyberlimb.

I limited Geasa to only 3 points of loss possible. If you loose more then 3 points of essence, even if you counter it with geasa, you loose your magic ability.

Also you take any essence loss as a penalty to social tests with spirits as you are unnatural. This doesn't help in binding tests (it's not an intimidation bonus).

On the other hand clonal replacement is cheaper then cyberware and costs no essence loss. If you remove the cyberware then you get the essence back in my game.

[Narmio]

Owl, I think you are basing your nerfs on the upper extreme of twinked out players, and therefore screwing everyone else over. Those of us who don't play Shadowrun 4: Mindmeltingly Munchy Edition can't see a problem. Perhaps your style of play is what's making you think the change is necessary?

Oh, and I find it seriously difficult to believe that any starting mage can do ten boxes of damage to a great dragon with only minor bleeding.

[knasser]

[Crusher Bob]

Erm, I think it would go something like this:

Spellcasting 6 (combat spells) + appropriate mentor spirit
Magic 5, edge 6 (assuming human)

Rolling 21 dice w/ edge

Assuming a dragon has 9 counterspelling and 12 willpower (rolls 21 dice to resist).

The mage can cast at force 10, gets ~8 sucesses, the dragon gets 7. With one net sucess, the dragon takes 11 boxes.

[laughingowl]

[laughingowl]

[Narmio]

[knasser]

[knasser]

[knasser]