Obviously many have seen my other post and the post flurry it started. Trying to keep the 'intent' style but also limit it somewhat (and make it combat spells work closer to every other type of spell).

What do people think of this house rule:


Combat Spells:

Base DV equals the total hits on the spellcasting test (capped by force of spell as always since this is the maximum hits you can have).

Applied Damage equals: Base DV + Net hits.


Every other spell type Force does nothing directly for the spell (save making it harder to dispel) but raises the 'potential' for success. The 'casting' is what determines how powerful it is.

This change would weaken mages somewhat, but follow the established concept for all other spells types and be more consistent with the other types of spells.

No longer is a force 12 spell (if it works) guaranteed to do 13 boxes of damage... WHile it still has the potential to do a base DV of 12, it requires the caster to get 12 success to get the base DV of 12.

This seems to follow how other spells work much closer.

While it obviously does 'weaken' the mage somewhat, it only really becomes a problem at the huge overcast spells, which is where most people will agree it can get a little silly.

As I implied in the other thread, I think it sucks the life out of Direct Combat Spells, totally screwing the Magicians.

Overcasting has its own sets of drawbacks and I think that the combat spells' drain values are balanced to their strengths. If you weaken the effects of Direct Combat Spells, then you'd need to look at lowering the Drain as well.

You would be severely weakening combat spells, especially compared to things such as firearms, which do have a base damage, often a pretty high one. Would you be combining this with your interpretation of the rules which lets the target make an additional damage resistance test after making the spell resistance test? If so, combat spells will be all but useless.

I did a few things to balence out the power level a bit.

First off I capped Magic at 9. You can initiate up to your magic rating up you can't raise your Magic rating itself above 9.

Then I capped overcasting at Magic + 3.

Then I added an additional type of overcasting called "Pushing a Spell". This allows you to cast a spell at a force less then or equal to your magic rating but to greater effect. It still causes the shift to physical damage. You can't Push and Overcast at the same time.

Pushing a spell gives you your force as base damage + successes. Your successes are still limited by your force but this means you can potentially do double your force in damage with a good roll.

Your drain is Force + Drain Modifiers, not Force/2. It is harder and potentially more dangerous to cast this way but it is very effective. Because of the caps on magic there is a hard limit on spell power levels.

This brings it more in line with the SR3 Deadly damage spells but people have a choice on what drain amount they want to take.

If you want to you could make the ability to Push a Spell be a metamagic technique if you wanted to limit it.

How so?

Non-overcast spells: Force 6 < for starting mages.

Most any mage build will get 6+ GROSS hits and do exactly the same damage..


What it does limit is high level overcast spells (well statistically force spells > 1/3 your total casting dice pool).


However as other threads are pointed out as they exist right now a 'noob' mage actually has a pretty good chance of totally dropping just about any listed creature in the rules up to and including the 'base' stats for a great dragon.

ALL other spells the 'spell casting' test determines the strength of the spell NOT the force, the force only sets the maximum effect.

Why do combat spells get stronger from force NOT potential for being stronger.

i launched a smart thermal smoke grenade blinding the mage that was casting those powerful combat spells then proceeded to shoot him from cover using ultrasound site smart goggles...It worked well. Thank you Ares alpha with APDS ammo, with all that smart gun technology you saved my bacon!

Hmm well first.

I have never stated I intended to use the damage resist for direct damage; jsut a in-depth reading gives a possiblity that they SHOULD.

I totally agree that BOTH would drastically weaken and in fact gimp mages.

However this as a stand-alone I do not think would weaken normal mage combat.

My problem is two-fold in looking at them:

1) No other spell gains power from 'force' but rather spellcasting sucesses. Raising the force of a direct combat spell by 1 is the equivilant of THREE dice on the 'reistance' roll.

2) Direct Combat spells (when pushed) are very much all or nothing. A newbie mage that can safely (my bleed a little but minor wounds) be relatively assured of doing 13+ stun damage to even a great dragon is pretty darn powerfull.

With this change that same noob mage would likely be doing 8-10 (minimum) damage. still not bad, but still a very reasonable hit.

I am not sure I like changing 'overcasting' rules since that can seriously limit the ability to do some other spells. (anyone try increase body on a troll to me the only real painful place overcast comes is combat spells and that is because force measures strength not the potential for strength.


Well wanted peoples opions on this one, and despite others seems to think overcasting (especially) is overpowered, looks like so far people dont like this one. Although think I will actually run it in my next game and see how it fully works out. Working the number 'in my head' doesnt seem like it will change the average one bit for 'normal' casting and will only weaken drastic overcasting and does follow the precedent set by all other spells closer.

Garrowolf:

While you limits work very well for players. Is tha magic 9 cap hard.

What about the old force 12 spirit of man. Is it magic 9, or 12, overcast to 15?

The magic cap is for metahumans. Dragons and great form spirits and what ever other powerful magical baddies you want can go higher. That is part of the point. I wanted any PC magic users to know that they are not the top of the magical food chain. That reality check exsists for every other character type but magic just kept on going so I decided to stop it.

I haven't sat down and worked out what would happen with pushing a spell other then a combat spell. I guess that it wouldn't work so it may be a combat only technique.

the thing about trolls is I use a rule that says that when a metahuman increases their attributes that have a bonus they pay for the increase without the bonus. This way they are not screwed when spending karma in game. I would do the same for the spell Increase Attribute.

OK since the vast majority see this is too weakening.

What about.

Combat spells base damage equal: MAGIC + net hits (capped by force)

You are assured of doing you magic damage (if it works) and overcasting can up this IF you can well; however an overcast is by no means an instant kill.


Note this would be a standalone. Not intended for other changes (over casting rules, etc).

So a powerbolt-6 cast by a magic 6 mage: with 2 net hits:

Damge (Base damage 6+2 = 8, capped at 6) + net hits = 8.

If cast at force 8 instead:

Damage (base damage 6+2=8 capped at + net hits = 10

If cast at force 12:

Damage (base damge 6+2 = + net hits = 10.

non-overcast work exactly the same way.

Overcasting now has limits based on your spellcasting skill.

Still makes 'combat' spell works totally differnt then every other spell, but limits overcasting and puts them a little closer inline to other spells.

This might be balanced if you forget that casting is a complex action. Direct combat spells have a nice punch to them, but you can't fire off as many spells as a sammy can fire off bullets.

If you want to balance direct combat spells with indirect, try buffing indirect somehow.

9 is the magic cap so Force 12 is only possible with overcasting. I don't allow spirits aiding casters to increase the Force, only add dice.

I am also harsh on characters that get cyberware and have magic. Each point of magic that they loose to cyberware increases their casting threshold by that much. Geasa does not remove this. If you take physical damage from drain and you have a cyberlimb then you have to check for damage to the cyberlimb.

I limited Geasa to only 3 points of loss possible. If you loose more then 3 points of essence, even if you counter it with geasa, you loose your magic ability.

Also you take any essence loss as a penalty to social tests with spirits as you are unnatural. This doesn't help in binding tests (it's not an intimidation bonus).

On the other hand clonal replacement is cheaper then cyberware and costs no essence loss. If you remove the cyberware then you get the essence back in my game.

Owl, I think you are basing your nerfs on the upper extreme of twinked out players, and therefore screwing everyone else over. Those of us who don't play Shadowrun 4: Mindmeltingly Munchy Edition can't see a problem. Perhaps your style of play is what's making you think the change is necessary?

Oh, and I find it seriously difficult to believe that any starting mage can do ten boxes of damage to a great dragon with only minor bleeding.

Erm, I think it would go something like this:

Spellcasting 6 (combat spells) + appropriate mentor spirit
Magic 5, edge 6 (assuming human)

Rolling 21 dice w/ edge

Assuming a dragon has 9 counterspelling and 12 willpower (rolls 21 dice to resist).

The mage can cast at force 10, gets ~8 sucesses, the dragon gets 7. With one net sucess, the dragon takes 11 boxes.

Well the views are pretty fixed, though I really wonder has a single person actually read the description, since EVERY one that has tried to give specifics has incorrectly quoted / reference it.

Though seem like people really dont like it.

Might have to go with garrowulf system then of limit magic to a hard maximum (base+half) (metahumanity = 9) (I would allow Greater Dragons to initate up to 18 (12+6) and probably limit overcasting to 1.5* magic.

(a slightly stronger verision that garrowulf's)

I still think trying to limit overcasting on 'combat' spells would work better, since most spells dont get any more powerful automatically casting ad maximum overcast, they just get the ability to use the hits socred. (as opposed to combat get directly more powerful regardless of number of hits); but everyone here is pretty much saying its gimping, though I do wonder.

Can anyone answer how much damage is done if a magic 8 caster, casts a powerbolot at force 12 and gets 4 net hits how much damage he does, 'raw' and 'mine'

I have reread laughingowl's post a couple of times and notice one thing he didn't cover. What happens when Magic > force. As far as I can tell Fortune is correct. Though usually this is suboptimal. I doubt I am going to be the opponents willpower to ever get off this force 1 spell. Most people have at least 3 willpower. That is enough to get 1 hit and resist the force 1 spell. Though it is rather bad when I have a magic 6 casting a force 5. I get 1 DV for free and can reliably hit most targets. I also get less drain as well, where normally I would be taking the drain of a force 6 spell for this kind of damage.

Those rules just don't make sense either, in regards to Shadowrun flavor. I would rather see rules that are inline and compliment how magic works in the SR4 universe.

The way I read Laughingowl's newest change is that your hits are capped by either your magic, or the force, whichever is lower. Everything else is exactly the same.

If that's the only change, I'm fine with it. It's a little weaker overall, but if he feels that overcasting is too powerful, it's a reasonable fix, imho. Edit: It seems like people are reading it as the base damage is *always* your magic. I think LO meant that it would be the lower of magic/force.

Is that your proposal, LO?

And if it's not, how do you feel about that?

Here are a couple examples.

Elf Mage, Magic 4. Spellcasting 5, focus in Combat spells, Adversary mentor spirit, spellcasting (combat) focus 2.

1. Casts a force 4 manabolt. Rolls 15 dice, gets 5 hits. Hits are capped at 4, damage is 4 + 4, or 8, in either system.

Too much drain taken, need less power cap'n!

2. Casts a force 2 stunbolt. Rolls 15 dice, gets 5 hits. Hits are capped at 2, damage is 2 + 2, or 4, in either system.

OMG, IT'S A MUTANT KILLER WHALE!!

3. Casts a force 8 death touch. Rolls 15 dice. Gets 5 hits. Hits are capped at 4, as magic is 4. Damage is 8+4, drain is physical, in his system. In RAW, damage is 8+5, as hits aren't capped at 4.

So this system results in a slightly less powerful overcast (by 1 hit)

3a. Casts a force 8 death touch. Spends Edge, rolls 19 dice. Gets 9 hits after rerolling 6's. Hits are capped at 4 (magic). Damage is 8+4, drain is physical. In RAW, damage is 8+8, as hits are capped at 8.

In the higher end overcast, it's a bigger impact. In situations where your dice pool far outweighs your magic, you can't deliver the biggest impacts.

laughingowl, Here's my question: Have you actually tested the official rules? Are they really a problem?

Sure, direct combat spells don't follow the exact same pattern as other spells. That's the way the game designers designed it. That's the way it was playtested. Have you considered that it might work fine that way?

Guns have no drain.
Combat spells do have drain.
Guns and Combat Spells both have reaction and damage resistance checks.
Therefore guns should have the same drain as combat spells.

Everything needs to end up with the exact same mechanics or else it just not fair!

Fix guns!

The problem isn't the magic system, it's the min-maxing/munchy players. Please feel free to slap them with a trout if their beginning combat mage has 18+ spell casting dice. Also feel free to use imaginative means to incapacitate their abilities, such as a mage sitting in astral dispelling them

To some degree, yes.

But at the same time, simply saying "People with 18 dice pools should be slapped" avoids the issue, and implies that there should never be people with 18 dice pools. Seeing that it's relatively easy to get, and any mid level runner will likely hit that in their prime skill....

And mechanics are pretty much in place to negate the 18 dice abuse - magic is capped by force. Overcasting is capped by physical damage. LO feels that isn't enough, and wants a bit more - I can see that.

But simply hand waving 18 dice as "bad gaming" doesn't work. Hell, the majority of my characters have at least 15 dice (stat of 5, skill of 5, specialization for 2, then some booster, whether it's muscle toner, smart link, adept power, etc) in their primary ability - otherwise, why hire my runners, instead of John Q off the street?

Hell, the example street sam has 14 dice to roll for combat!

There are plenty of innovative, creative, and outright useful ways to hinder a mage's magical ability in combat. First and foremost is LOS. Things such as smoke and cover help play a role in this, flash grenades as well.

Then you have mage backup, be it astrally dispelling the mage or actively in combat providing counterspelling. You also of course have the ever famous "Geek the mage first". As they are generally worse at taking a 9mm to the chest than the Sammy or Phys Ad or the rigger's drone.

Also of course is that someone tossing around that much mojo is going to traced by it fairly easily unless they always have time to clean up the astral traces, which they won't.

LaughingOwl, I think your system is an extremely elegant solution to the problem you mentioned. I, too, would like to see slightly more granularity in the damage caused by direct combat spell and will likely adopt your proposal when I finally get around to playing a bit.

Concerning min/maxing, I think people have to be aware that they are real-life people who pursue power in various forms - money, social status, political power, influence, big muscles, etc. - and these people do think seriously about how to best spend their time and money to achieve their goals of world domination or die trying. I don't think the world of SR is any different. As such, choosing powerful combinations of abilities, skills and gear are not necessarily munchkinism. If some characters are way too powerful relative to the standards of the game universe, it might be due to bad rules, but it can also be due to an overly generous GM - in terms of karma awards, among other things. Sometimes, yes, the Raw will have loopholes allowing abuse. The developers might have let something slip by. In the end, each gaming group has to determine what they will allow in their game and what is just going to break it.

My main character is a min/maxer. It's in his personality. Think Wise Warrior (but without the bonus dice ). He wants to be an effective fighter in certain specific situations and trains accordingly. He is ambidextrous but, in his background, it is an ability that he developed through training - because he considered it important and worked hard for it - rather than something he was born with. He is not a one-trick pony. He has interests, goals, family, friends, etc. He has limitations. He is human - well, elf, actually - and fails every now and then, just like everyone else. He's good at what he does, and I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as the character has an *interesting* concept and background, I don't think munchkinism will be much of an issue. The problem usually arises when the player's character concept is: "I want to throw 50 dice when shooting with an assault rifle." In my group, I am the one who knows the rules best, so I am the default GM. As such, my players expect me to help them learn cool tricks that won't make the game boring for everyone else. When something is broken, I either don't allow it or try my best to fix it. I limit my own min/maxing by interpreting rules in a way that keeps things sane. If you interpret one rule generously, it can make for a cool trick. The problem comes when you interpret all rules generously and stack them to create a god-like creature that destroys the game. If the rules allow full overcasting at no drain too easily, then LaughingOwl's proposal and other such houserules can come in handy. I, for one, will look into it seriously.

@lorechaser: I've made that point about four of five times now in this thread, but have never had a reply to it.

The only part I saw unbalanced by magic was overcasting, and thats easily fixed by messing with the drain mods. Such ideas as when overcasting, the force is not divided by two for drain, or for every level of force you exceed your magic by you add that much drain to the end of the calculation.

@knasser: I used more numbers.

I don't really mind LO's proposal, at least as I understand it (Limit to magic or force, whichever is less).

But generally, I worry that the bulk of the "Mages are sooooooooooo overpowered" threads are made possible by the fact that it's simply easier to pull out an overpowered mage than an overpowered non-mage. Mages can overcast with the aid of a spirit. Those are both fairly easy topics. Sams can pump damage via gear and builds, and recruit themselves a nice Steel Lynx to help. That's harder to do. And somehow, buying 5.5 essence worth of ware and dedicating it to certain purposes is more munchy, and less acceptable, than buying magic 6 and Conjuring 5/spell casting 5 + foci.

Case in point: My pc has a cybernetic gyrohand. This was done specifically so she could fire long bursts w/o recoil penalties. Several people called that out as "cheesy" or simply said "Yeah, I don't allow gyrohands in my game." Yet that gyrohand is basically the equivalent of overcasting - it allows her to push to the upper bounds, with a cost in essence and nuyen, rather than drain.

*shrug*

Triggerz:

Glad you seem to like it.


Lorechaser:

You still dont quite get it, my limits are actually even a little 'higher' than you state:

"Limit to magic or force, whichever is less"

Is incorrect.

Damage from direct combat spells is determined by two thing Base DV and then you add the 'net successes' from the spellcasting vs body/will+counterspellign roll.


My systtem:

Instead of a flay 'base dv= force'

I limit the effect of overcasting (to hamper the very high end overcasting).

base damage value - Magic + net sucesses with a hard cap of the 'force' of the spell.

Magic 2 casting a force 4 spell.

One net success: base dv = 2 (magic) + 1 (net successes) = 3
Two net sucess: base dv = 2 (magic) + 2 (net successes) = 4
three+ net successes base dv = 2 (magic) +3+ (net successes) however the cap of 'force' has been reached so base DV = 4 (force)

Actual damage taken from those would (as always) be base DV + net successes

Another way to expresses it (in 'character terms' not game mechanics). Is while there is a certain amount of mana you can control easily (magic rating). Up to this effect you are assured the mana will flow properly.

You can TRY to use more mana, but there is downsides. One you tend to damage yourself (physical drain as opposed to stun) AND the additional mana you may or may not be able to control (the extra force dice only are added equal to your net successes), sometime a portion of the 'extra' mana is wasted as you channel it through you but are unable to focus that much extra mana into the desired effect.


One thing to 'be fair' your first example is slightly possible for a 'ordinary event' while hard to conceal the Ares Alpha is nto quite impossible.

For you second situation the sammy suddently got a gyromount, or has deployed the weapon on a bipod

You mage example has no 'loaded for bear' gear mentioned. Ex-Ex ammo, Ares Alpha, and especailly popping bipod or even worse gyromount, pretty much means serious heat. mage would almost certainly have foci, spirits, etc in the above situation.

Your example pits the sammy in full battle gear against a naked mage, not quite a fair example.

Now if you want to make the same 'laoded' for bear.

Give the mage a spell-casting foci 3 and a pair of mage-site googles with a 30m cable.

mage is behind 30m of hard cover totally unreachable, and is casting exactly the same (mage sight googles -3 dice, foci + 3 dice).

The first example I dont really disagree with.

While the mage 'could' be in the sky needle, has nothing gear wise to attract attention and the sammy is carrying a fairly heavy weapon (Alpha are going to attract attention)., I dont have a problem with non-overcasting 'balance'

The overcasting (especially at the high end) is where it seems to get a little funny. which is why I wish to limit it.

As described above.

Mine changes nothing non-overcasting. (functionally, tehcnically how it is calculated changed, but function will ALWAYS work out identical).

Overcasting you ONLY get the 'extra' force if you can sucessfully channel the mana (as determiend by your spellcasting test). if you are going to over cast by 6 points, you need to get 6 net successes (or more) to get the full effect.


Knasser:

unless I am reading wrong the cyberARM gyromount wihle the capacity is such it would fit in an obvious cyberhand, I would have to say the name pretty much means it HAS to be a cyberARM item.

Lorechaser:

CyberHAND gyromount or Cyberarmor gyro mount?

As I read a cyberhand wouldn't be possible the 'CyberARM gyromount' is specifically called a cyberarm. Even if allowed, the cyberhand would be at max capacity (for an obvious, (synthetic it wouldnt fit), so doesnt that mean shotting the gun you are capped at a 3 agility for shootting? (since no room to upgade the cyberhand?)

Just go with Lower Arm. Capacity 10. Easy to add the gyromount and upgrade Agility to 7. (Ag = Rating * 4 availability, otherwise it would be fun to raise it to 9 agility).

Huh.

I see your difference now. I'm fine with your system too. Basically, you have to get as many net successes as the difference between your magic and the force. Fair enough.