 Foci: inactive subject to astral perception? |
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 Oct 27 2006, 07:14 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895  |
Page 182 of BB4
Page 190 of BB4
Page 190 is the closest thing I can find that implies an inactive might not be noticeable. however; Page 182 does not say active items, merely 'magic' items. Page 190, does say when activated it has an astral form; but to me this is for purposes of getting through wards, being damaged/attack, etc. The text on page 182 make it pretty clear to me anyways that an inactive foci would still be 'in color' rather then the gray lackluster shadows of a non-living / non-magical object. Much the same way a mage (barring masking) is noticable on the astral regardless of whether they are 'active' or not. So my vote is obviously yes... but wonder what others think. |
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Oct 27 2006, 01:15 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I my opinion, for what it's worth :D
Foci are astrally visible, whether they are active or not. If active, they can be attacked. They can be masked, if you have the right metamagic techniques. |
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Oct 27 2006, 01:23 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Yeah, I figure inactive ones are visible because they have an aura, whereas active foci have their own astral form.
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Oct 27 2006, 02:23 PM
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#4
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Is an inactive focus invisible when perceived astrally? Probably not.
I would definately have an inactive and active foci look different. |
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Oct 27 2006, 02:38 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Well never meant to imply they were 'invisible' but do the appear as 'magic' items. (color/brigher/etc).
To me a 'fcoi' when active is dual natured and as such has a presence on the astral, can be attacked, etc. When inactive it has no presecne (astral form), but with even a single astral perception sucess it will be known it is 'someting' special, they might not know what type of foci it is, and possibly not it strength, (though weak, medium, ohh my god glow; would be a fairly easy (perhaps 2 successes). |
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Oct 27 2006, 05:44 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
from the assensing table on the next page, 3 successes will get you:
Any more questions? |
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Oct 27 2006, 05:52 PM
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#7
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think one of the things laughingowl is trying to ascertain is whether it is possible, or indeed if there is even a need, to use Masking to hide Inactive Foci.
In my opinion, there is no need. The Focus, being Inactive, should not have a magical Aura that would need to be Masked. |
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Oct 27 2006, 06:10 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
He quoted it himself, enchanted items show their magical nature, i.e. aura. So yes, just as to hide yourself from someone going astral to ascertain if you are magically active, you would need to hide your foci too. |
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Oct 27 2006, 06:25 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Or you could bloody hide them under your coat. Visibility still applies on the astral. Even magical auras.
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Oct 27 2006, 06:36 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Auras project through clothes. |
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Oct 27 2006, 06:42 PM
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#11
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Key words there are 'magically active'. A Focus is not 'magically active' when it is not actually Active. It is merely a piece of jewelry with your Astral Signature on it that has the potential to be magically Active. An Inactive Focus does not interact in any way with the Astral, and is not impeded by Wards. Other than hiding your signature (can Masking do that in SR4?), there would be absolutely no need to use Masking on Inactive Foci. |
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Oct 27 2006, 06:56 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
That's all I was saying - a focus that's visible (whether or not it's active) would be identifiable as such by an appropriately skilled character. An inactive focus does not interact with wards, is not subject to disruption from the astral plane, and does not "glow" (which is really overstated much of the time - see the assensing table for the threshold for spotting spells and whatnot) any more than a mundane object.
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Oct 27 2006, 07:02 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
*chuckles* Give me a page reference, please. Or perhaps a reasonable arguement. Emotional signatures of places and things still show up in the astral, last I heard. Auras tend to reduce visibilty of other auras. Not to mention the fact than a metahuman is alive, and thus has a far larger aura than a focus would. Thats like saying you can see auras through walls, which is not canon last I checked. Fortune: Improved Masking allows you to hide active spells and foci just like normal masking on your aura. Useful for so many things. |
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Oct 27 2006, 07:06 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
The reasonable argument is basically that people in full body armor can still have spells cast at them. The alternative is munchkiny beyond belief. (Note, however, that I don't support the 'nipple-ring focus is visible from orbit' 'alternate' viewpoint either.)
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Oct 27 2006, 07:13 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
The size of a persons aura "shines through", whereas a small object (ie something easily concealable; knife, watch, and so on) would able to be concealed the same as any other object in shadowrun. That doesn't mean you can't see it no matter what, it just makes to harder to spot (dice pool penalty). Its just like an astral form thats hiding from you that gets infiltration rolls. A foci should get the concealability modifiers (see equipment section) even if it doesn't get the palming roll (and even thats arguable).
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Oct 27 2006, 07:19 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, I do understand that, but thanks. You'll notice that I am (and continually have been) talking about Inactive Foci. I've even italicized it on numerous occasions in multiple posts in the vain hope of making that point even clearer. Sorry for any miscommunication on my part. :) |
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Oct 27 2006, 07:20 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Again, sounds like we agree - I was just pointing out that there are common-sense exceptions to most everything. People tend to be far too attached to their own absolute interpretations.
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Oct 27 2006, 07:20 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Sadly the current rules don't allow my warded full-body armor. |
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Oct 27 2006, 07:25 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Meh. Just never liked the "auto-detection" implied by so many when it comes to astral forms of all kinds.
Fortune: Ah. Nm then. I wonder if Flux could be used to "hide" signatures on inactive foci in that manner then... that would seem more appropriate. |
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Oct 27 2006, 07:33 PM
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#20
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's cool. :)
I can't recall what can actually be used to hide signatures on anything. |
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Oct 27 2006, 07:39 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Ah! Its Flexbiel Signature that allows you to do that! Its just like Aura Masking but for Signatures. With an option of reducing the lifetime of the signature instead. You do have to use someone elses signature though. Great for planting evidence. XD
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Oct 27 2006, 07:51 PM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Hmmm. I thought about that, but didn't consider that it would extend to Foci and such (although why the hell not I don't know :oops: ).
Be that as it may, if a Masked Mage (hi-ho :wavey: ) was walking down the street with a couple of Inactive Foci, it wouldn't really matter if his signature was on the Foci, as he would (or could) appear mundane. Searching for an Astral Signature would not be the type of thing someone would do with every single item on every random person they see. Even a Security Mage wouldn't often search that far unless he had some kind of suspicion in the first place (like obvious fetishes or other magical paraphrenalia, for example). |
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Oct 27 2006, 08:42 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Fortune: Read my qyote from Astral Perception. ENCHANTED objects .... No mention of being 'active' or not. A foci, that owner is dead, and it has been lying in the attic for a dedcade would be noticable to someone doing a astral perception. |
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Oct 27 2006, 08:58 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So would an armchair, but that doesn't mean it looks any different without Assensing it. And if it isn't Magically Active at the time, there are a lot fewer reasons for the perceiving person to actually Assense that specific item.
I believe it still takes an actual Assensing test to determine the exact magical nature of any specific object. As stated above, there is a Threshold of 3 to notice an Astral Signature, but I'm not sure of the Threshold for Foci, or in this case, Inactive Foci. All that aside, I am not sure that you can make an Inactive Focus appear to be totally mundane ... at least according to what is written in canon. It follows that it should be possible, as Active Foci can be Masked to appear as mundane items with Improved Masking. Of couse, any such use of Improved Masking should count against the Initiate's total. Even then, after all is said and done, you have still not removed your Astral Signature. That would reuire an additional Metamagic to mask. |
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Oct 27 2006, 09:11 PM
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#25
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Laughingowl, imagine describing to a blind person a lightbulb. Especially the bit about whether it is on or off. To someone who can see, it's obvious whether it is on or off by simply looking at it, to the blind person it's impossible to tell. Though they can know there is a light bulb is there through other senses. It's that glass bulb thing.
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