Page 182 of BB4

I my opinion, for what it's worth

Foci are astrally visible, whether they are active or not. If active, they can be attacked. They can be masked, if you have the right metamagic techniques.

Yeah, I figure inactive ones are visible because they have an aura, whereas active foci have their own astral form.

Is an inactive focus invisible when perceived astrally? Probably not.

I would definately have an inactive and active foci look different.

Well never meant to imply they were 'invisible' but do the appear as 'magic' items. (color/brigher/etc).

To me a 'fcoi' when active is dual natured and as such has a presence on the astral, can be attacked, etc.

When inactive it has no presecne (astral form), but with even a single astral perception sucess it will be known it is 'someting' special, they might not know what type of foci it is, and possibly not it strength, (though weak, medium, ohh my god glow; would be a fairly easy (perhaps 2 successes).

I think one of the things laughingowl is trying to ascertain is whether it is possible, or indeed if there is even a need, to use Masking to hide Inactive Foci.

In my opinion, there is no need. The Focus, being Inactive, should not have a magical Aura that would need to be Masked.

Or you could bloody hide them under your coat. Visibility still applies on the astral. Even magical auras.

That's all I was saying - a focus that's visible (whether or not it's active) would be identifiable as such by an appropriately skilled character. An inactive focus does not interact with wards, is not subject to disruption from the astral plane, and does not "glow" (which is really overstated much of the time - see the assensing table for the threshold for spotting spells and whatnot) any more than a mundane object.

The reasonable argument is basically that people in full body armor can still have spells cast at them. The alternative is munchkiny beyond belief. (Note, however, that I don't support the 'nipple-ring focus is visible from orbit' 'alternate' viewpoint either.)

The size of a persons aura "shines through", whereas a small object (ie something easily concealable; knife, watch, and so on) would able to be concealed the same as any other object in shadowrun. That doesn't mean you can't see it no matter what, it just makes to harder to spot (dice pool penalty). Its just like an astral form thats hiding from you that gets infiltration rolls. A foci should get the concealability modifiers (see equipment section) even if it doesn't get the palming roll (and even thats arguable).

Again, sounds like we agree - I was just pointing out that there are common-sense exceptions to most everything. People tend to be far too attached to their own absolute interpretations.

Meh. Just never liked the "auto-detection" implied by so many when it comes to astral forms of all kinds.

Fortune: Ah. Nm then. I wonder if Flux could be used to "hide" signatures on inactive foci in that manner then... that would seem more appropriate.

It's cool.

I can't recall what can actually be used to hide signatures on anything.

Ah! Its Flexbiel Signature that allows you to do that! Its just like Aura Masking but for Signatures. With an option of reducing the lifetime of the signature instead. You do have to use someone elses signature though. Great for planting evidence. XD

Hmmm. I thought about that, but didn't consider that it would extend to Foci and such (although why the hell not I don't know ).

Be that as it may, if a Masked Mage (hi-ho ) was walking down the street with a couple of Inactive Foci, it wouldn't really matter if his signature was on the Foci, as he would (or could) appear mundane. Searching for an Astral Signature would not be the type of thing someone would do with every single item on every random person they see. Even a Security Mage wouldn't often search that far unless he had some kind of suspicion in the first place (like obvious fetishes or other magical paraphrenalia, for example).

So would an armchair, but that doesn't mean it looks any different without Assensing it. And if it isn't Magically Active at the time, there are a lot fewer reasons for the perceiving person to actually Assense that specific item.

I believe it still takes an actual Assensing test to determine the exact magical nature of any specific object. As stated above, there is a Threshold of 3 to notice an Astral Signature, but I'm not sure of the Threshold for Foci, or in this case, Inactive Foci.

All that aside, I am not sure that you can make an Inactive Focus appear to be totally mundane ... at least according to what is written in canon. It follows that it should be possible, as Active Foci can be Masked to appear as mundane items with Improved Masking. Of couse, any such use of Improved Masking should count against the Initiate's total.

Even then, after all is said and done, you have still not removed your Astral Signature. That would reuire an additional Metamagic to mask.

Laughingowl, imagine describing to a blind person a lightbulb. Especially the bit about whether it is on or off. To someone who can see, it's obvious whether it is on or off by simply looking at it, to the blind person it's impossible to tell. Though they can know there is a light bulb is there through other senses. It's that glass bulb thing.

Everything is subject to astral perception. See p 183 Assensing Table.

You roll no successes, that inactive foci looks like a lump of dirt.
You get 1 success, it's a happy lump of dirt.
You get two success, you might recognize thsi lump of dirt.
You get three successes, you recognize the happy lump of dirt that was used by a sorceror to sustain a fire combat spell.
You get 4 successes, You know all of the above, and that it was a force 3 spell.
You get 5 or more, You know all of the above and that your friendly piece of dirt dreams of being part of an invoked greater earth spirit someday and destroying all of Denver.

To answer the OP question, how many successes did the player get while assensing the dirt lump?

What we're saying is that an Inactive Focus does not automatically appear as a 'Magic Item' unless 'Detect Magic' or 'Identify' are used specifically on it. There are no automatically distinguishing features that differentiate between the non-active '+2 Ring of Protection' and any other ring in existance.

When the Focus is Active, however, it's Magic is readily apparent, although it still takes an Assensing test to determine its exact nature.

An unMasked, inactive focus still appears to be magical when seen from the Astral plane, and assensing may reveal what type of magical good it is (power focus, combat spell fetish, etc.), the relative or exact Force of the focus, any astral signatures on it (the magician bonded to it, the magician who cast a spell on it, the enchanter who created it, or the spirit inhabiting it if the focus is also a vessel, as it may be), and possibly the cause of said signature.

An unMasked, active focus can be attacked in Astral Combat, the target of mana spells from the Astral plane, and accompanies the astral form of the magician it is bonded to. Assensing may reveal what type of enchanted object it is (power focus, combat spell fetish, etc.), the relative or exact Force of the focus, any astral signatures on it (the magician bonded to it, the magician who cast a spell on it, the enchanter who created it, or the spirit inhabiting it if the focus is also a vessel, as it may be, as it may be), and possibly the cause of said signature.

An initiate with the Masking metamagic may cause their aura to appear mundane, of a higher Magic rating, of a lower Magic rating, or as that of a different magical creature. However, any foci (or other magical goods) they carry will still appear. While it might be explainable why a mundane is carrying around an inactive focus, a mundane carrying around an active focus may quite naturally be considered suspicious (or, at the very least, assumed to be a prepped anchoring focus). The magical good may still be assensed.

An initiate with the Extended Masking advanced metamagic may extend an illusory aura over their foci. This means the focus can be made to resemble a mundane item.

As with normal Masking, any attempt to assense the Masked focus must first pierce the illusory aura to gain any information. This also means that any initiate with the Psychometry metamagic must pierce the illusory aura before gaining any useful information through Psychometry.

An initiate with Flexible Signature can change their astral signature at will. However, any focus the initiate is bonded with will always display her astral signature, no matter if it is changed or not. Said initiate can still attempt to forge another magician's signature when using Enchanting to create a focus ("Yes, this mageblade was forged by Wayland Jones..."), or casting a spell on said focus ("Look, that bastard dwarf tried to destroy my focus!").
An initiate with Flexible Signature could also reduce the duration their signature persists on the focus (from Enchanting or casting a spell); they cannot lessen the duration of their signature persisting on a focus from bonding, or of a spirit if it is still inhabiting the focus.


Foci and other magical goods are brighter on the Astral than their mundane counterparts. However, the shadows cast by mundane objects are opaque, and may conceal an inactive magical good, including inactive foci.
Active foci, however, are very much extensions of the magician's aura, and like the magician's aura shine through clothing.

QUOTE

...clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the wielder's aura...(p.112, Street Magic)

So an active focus can be seen, assensed, and targeted even if concealed by clothing (or, indeed, if ingested by the magician, an implant, or otherwise not normally visible).

An astrally projecting magician, of course, has no clothing and the active focus is not concealed in any way.

I checked it out before I posted. While it can be construed (because of the wording on page 182-3, SR4) that an assensing test would be required to identify an object as a magical good, it makes sense that magical goods (which have been altered by Enchanting, requiring at least a minimum of emotional investment and mana) appear as a bit brighter than completely mundane items. Indeed, page 112 of Street Magic clearly says magical things glow brightly on the Astral.

If it is an issue, you could easily rule that while you always see a non-concealed magical good, you cannot determine if it is magical (as opposed to, say, the person's much-beloved lucky charm or wedding ring in which they've invested quite a bit of emotion) without an assensing test.

Ancient History:

Thanks for the post, that is pretty much what I thought, and described very well.

Question though: "You checked it out" just re-going through the books, or checking with a developer or?

I beg to differ with the assumption that a blind person cannot tell if a light is on or off. I'll bet that if you tested this theory you would be wrong. A light bulb does not emit only light when it is on. It emits sound and heat. A blind person may not be able to discern as easily if a bulb is on or off, but they would be able to do so.

Sit in a room with a black-out blindfold and have someone turn the light on and off. Eventually, I bet you'll know if it's on or not.

Fortune:

It is not quite as bad as you try to paint it atleast how I read the rules.


While it is clear if you 'see' the foci, you will realize it is a foci, much the same way if you see an Ares Predator you 'automatically' know it is somekind of firearm.

Just going to astral perception / projection does not automatically make you aware of every foci in LOS.

However even inactive if you 'look' at an item specfically it will be obvious that it is a foci.

Likewise if you 'look over a person' to see if they are packing, you will have to overcome whatever its concealabilty is. (threshold would very depending on circumstances).

If you had a pile of legitimate 'foci' (think what might be sold as 'good luck chamrs' and/or a few force-1 'legal' ones. worn openly on your chest (and ideally not even bond to you), and had a force-4 foci under your shirt 'hidden'

It might be a threshold 3-4 on an Astral perception to 'notice' the Force-4 foci. Note: this is not too notice that it is 'a foci', but rather to 'spot the foci'.

If you were strip searching the person, and looking at each piece of clothing you took off them, as soon as you looked at the foci, you see it is 'something' (would have to make an Assensing roll if you wanted to get details).

However, while a 'foci' is clearly 'differnt' from a mundane peice of metal. You do not automatically 'spot' it. You glance over a person/room/breifcae/whatever and you have not 'spot' things.

EXACTLY the same way you have to 'spot' the hold-out in the samll of the back holster, but IF spotted you know roughtly what it is (may not know model, if it has a laser sight, etc, but you know they are packing a small firearm.


peace

What he said.

Wait, the argument as I understand it is if you can see an inactive focus on a person because even an inactive focus would have an aura that matches the person who bonded to it?

Wouldn't that mean that the aura of the object would match the aura of the magican and therefore not show up? It doesn't have to hide it's aura because it has the same aura.

Now if you held it apart from your body then I could see it being more noticable but I would say that it either has to be active to be noticable or something done to make it stand out.

Now I could also see high successes on an assensing test allowing you to see a more geometric pattern, like the straight lines of a sword, in your aura.

While it bears the bonder's Astral Signature, a Focus' Aura is distinct from that of the Magician.

I thought your astral signature was the pattern of your aura. Someone who is learning your astral signature just looks at your aura and tried to remember the pattern.

Garrowolf:

" Wait, the argument as I understand it is if you can see an inactive focus on a person because even an inactive focus would have an aura that matches the person who bonded to it?"

Not quite. An ENCHANTED item has an aura that is distiquishable from non-living, non-magical.

Whether it is bonded or not doesnt matter. Now if it is bonded, it' aura is influenced by the person it is bonded to and can be used to track said person (or said person could track a foci he is boned to (IMO)).

But like a living thing, magic/enchanted items have an actual aura, NOT just the grey shadow that is inert mater.

To me think of say punisher style comics where most of the cell in black and white with the main character in color. AS BBB4 clearly states:

"Living things tht are not active on the Astral plane still cast reflections of themselves there, called auras. Any non-living objects appear as a faded semblance of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.

Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form -- Projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, (active foci) and so on . Astral forms are more colorful and brigher that auras, as they are astrally real.[/quote]

[quote[Like Physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant this means that most astral forms are easily seen). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specfically trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrallly observe in detail.; in both of these situations, an Assensing test is made.

By assensing something aura a magician can gain information. The aura of living beings show their general health, emotions, and magical nature (if any). Enchanted Objects show their magical nature. Non-magical and non-living objects have only gray lackluster shadows rather than actual auras, but pick up impressions from being in contact with living auras. Assensing can read any impressions left behind on an object[/quote]


To me it is pretty clear.

A chunk of concrete ripped from a building and lying on the ground is a gray monocrhome matte form.

An inactive foci or a 'human' is a pastel water color. Clearly standing out from the 'gray' background.

An Active foci, a dual nature being, or anything with an 'astral form' is a vibrant rich oil painting approaching even a neon glow maybe.


IF you specifically look at a 'foci' you mind will say it is a foci: (since it is pretty obvious it aint 'alive)

Just like if I hand you a pistol (even a model you never have seen before), any but the most clueless would most likely recognize it as a pistol.

Now if you have that inactive foci stuffed into your pants pocket 'hiding it' then I might not notice it. Not noticing it is NOT the same as not recognizing it.

Same way as if I have the pistol in an inner thigh holster you might not notice it... If you are paying attention (either observe in detail 'doing you job' as security guard, or even perhaps a lucky 'perceoption roll' just to see. It might be noticed. If somebody notices the bulb then it is up to the GM how much the would notice.

For the gun. "You notice a funny bulge in his pants. The fabric is bunching a litle funny. There something there." (or with more sucesses) "You also notice a slight indentaiton around his leg just above it. Your pretty sure it would be an inner thigh holster. not long enough to be an effective blad, probably a hold-out, or maybe some smal electronic device"

For the foci: "You glance over the guy. He defiantly some kind of mage, none of his visible jewlerly or items appear to have any aura of thier own, nor does he have any secondary aura about him, hmm thats odd. While you cant see anything past the gray coloration of his pants clearly, the bleed through from his aura doesnt look quite right. Something is funny down there, you are pretty sure he has something in his pants." (with more sucesses) (Yeah there is defiantly another aura, not his, and not something effecting all of him, isolated to somewhere on his right thigh. Isnt overwhelming strong, but there is some additional aura there."

Now when the security guy comes up and say, please empty your pockets (and/or they strip search you).

For the gun:

"They lead the guy back into the search room. He looks somewhat nervous so you make sure you get two or three guards to go with you just in case he does something. Once in the room, they guy seems to break and mentions that he does have a liscense to carry a hold-out and he must have forgotten he had it on. He asks how you want to proceed. You have the guards draw their service pistols and cover him, You instruct the guy to withdraw the pistol very slowly and suggest he not make any sudden moves. After a few shaking moments you see the guy carefull put a small hold-out on the table in front of him. (you need no roll to recognize a gun, or most likely even the 'class' if you have any familiarty). After a short talk, you do verify that the SIN provided atleast (you arent dumb enough to swear its the guy) matches and is registered for conceal carry of a pistol. The paper work does match up atleast intially and they guy offers to pay the 'courts' 1000¥ fine and says he really was stupid about forgetting about it but he been doing courier work for a while and the company required it, and he was in the habit of strapping it on, and forgot that he was off-duty today and personal busniess.

Well that fine certainly would help the 'courts' and if he had declared it, his paperwork allowed him to carry it, just needed to declare it. You reach for your 'pocket change' cred-stick, and start to tell him you will see that the fines are filed. As you get ready to do so you take a last look at the pistol it does look like a pretty nice weapon, maybe you should raise the fine alittle. You take a closer look at the weapon (observe in detail), suddenly your face frowns, then smiles even wider. While his permits might permit him to conceal carry, nothing on them mentioned a forbidden silencer and taking a closer look at the clip eject, you recognize the code color makrings of ADPS rouunds. No mere conceal carry permit allows either of those, no the fine certainly just got higher, and the pistol is going to have to be confiscated.

'Well Mr. Smith, 1000¥ fine would certainly cover failure to declare your legally carried pistol; however the paper works seems to be a little out of order. I see nothing noting a permit for a silencer, nor for armor piercing ammo......"

For the Foci:

"They lead the guy into the search room. Not being the physical type you make sure two of the larger guards escort him, he is led into the room showing slight signs of nervousness.

Mr. Smith, I really must ask you to inform us what you have in your pants, and to ever so carefully take it out.

You tell him once you have the two guards covering him with their pistols.

Mr. Smith takes a small bundle of wire/metal with something inside it out of his pocket. You can immediately tell it isn't just a chunk of metal. The gold may be somehwat pale but is a deep gold color even as you look at it on the astral, with a darker brown item deeper inside. The items clearly has its own aura, it doesnt have an astral form present, so its not currently active on the astral, but its either a living things, or some kind of enchanted item.

You do know, Mr. Smith that all enchanted items need to be declared.

Of course, he responds, please check my paperwork, this is just my health foci. I have always had a weak constitution, and the charm is far better then a bottle of asprin. You will see it listed quite clearly on my manifest.

Hmm, I do see the item lists Mr. Smith, but any enchanted items are to be checked, not carried through, you can understand why security get a litlte paranoid about things like this cant you.

Your order Mr. Smith to turn and face the wall, and motion the guards to keep a very close eye on him. You focus your attention closely on the foci (assensing roll / obsrve in detail). Hmm it looks about right, it could be the health charm described (force 4 foci). Looks like the fool maybe honestly did just forget. Though he does seem to be a little nervous for an honest mistake. Still sensing something isnt quite right you decide to take a closer look at the foci (trying again so -2, but spending edge also). The soothing green and gold lattice comfots you as you look at it still not quite sure why you have a funny feeling about all this. Then you notice it. While the green and gold wire work is most certainly what the paperwork described, the something else inside appears to actually be something totally seperate. As you peer around / through the lattice work of gold, you realize what you thought was an earth brown, was merely that because of the green/gold shell around it. As you peer inside you realize it is actually a much harsher angry red. What appeared to be one item is actually two. A hollow sphere/ball that appears to be legitmate as described some kind of healing foci; however nested inside it those dark harsh angry reds could only be a combat foci of some kind. not quite as strong as the health foci, but certainly the real thing, not some cheap rubbish.

Mr. Smith you saying with as much ice in your voice as you can muster, The item does appear to be exactly what it is listed on your paperwork; however, since it was not properly checked and passed through our normal security process we are going to have to hold it and throughly check it out. We will need to hold it for a few days, but say anytime after 96 hours if you wish to come back to the station here, and can provide an complete description of what it is, matching the paperwork, we will be able to return it to you at that time.

Smith looked (literlally as you are still watching him from the astral, trusting the 'muscle' to stop anything physical) angry, but also seemed to be willing to cut his losses.

Smith left saying he was uncomfortable without his lucky charm/health charm and re-asked when he could pick it up. Give the time, he said he would be here promptly as he certainly didnt want to go longer with out it.

You watch as Mr. Smith is escort out. Now to just find a way to get the inner foci out before you turn the confiscated health foci over to the impound. Odds are he would never show back up to claim even the health foci and in 90 days it would go up for auction to the mages in the company, but then nobody knew about the other foci inside. Even if he showed back up to claim the health foci, Smith certainly wasnt going to say hey 'somebody' took my illegal and unregistered combat foci out of this... The records and the recordings of the search room would all show it appeared to be just a health foci....

Yes, this should be a pretty pile of nuyen."


Recognizing the differnce between a 'dead' pieces of stone/metal/(even wood) and a 'living being' (either through actual life, or via being 'enchanted') is automatic. However recognizing WHAT said item is takes an assensing roll.

Also again 'perception' to notice somethig still play a roll. The 'gun' could have been hidden in a camera. Unless the perception test to look at the camera noted something funny, they wouldnt notice the gun , same way the first test didnt see the second foci 'hidden' inside the first.

However, once you notice the 'item' idetinfying it as somekind of foci is automatic. Same way as if you spot the gun barrel for a 'hinge' on the camera, you realize it is a gun barrel. You might not know what it shots, how many times, how fast... but you certainly know you dont have a camera!

Notcing something is differnt from being able to tell what it is.

IF you walk in the room, you very likely wont notice the pistol sitting on the bookshelf (unless you are in the habit of searching the rooms wth you enter); however IF you notice it you know it is a pistol.

Likewise Just looking at a person, if they have taken any effort to 'conceal' a foci, you dont automatically spot the foci..... HOWEVER, if you DO spot the foci, you will no automaticaly that it has an aura... which only living things or enchanted items do.....

Now you would have to observe in detail to determine 'what' it was enchanted for and/or how strong.

Also an inactive / active foci is immediately apparent if you can see the item, since it is the difference of a mage and a astral percieving mage (I.E dual nature) the 'active' foci will have an actual astral form, while the inactive foci will just have an aura.

well sounds like you have the issue resolved.
I hadn't looked that much into it.