 VR Visualization of the Matrix, External Iconography |
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 Nov 3 2006, 07:18 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
Hi all,
In SR3, LTGs, RTGs or PLTGs hosted systems providing a external iconography of the hosts in its section of the Matrix. These upstream-providers persisted external imagery of what you "saw" before you accessed the target host. Since there are no Matrix Service Providers (MSP) or upstream-providers for Nodes how's this done in SR4? Given you have to login directly to a Node, you take-on the Nodes own Iconography or provide your own Reality Filter. I think some Nodes would allow connecting Nodes to "pass in" their external visualization data else, you'd only see the Node you currently occupy. Like independant islands, Nodes and Systems may or may-not allow connected Nodes to share their external Iconography. I'd assume, public-data-hubs would have lots of public-nodes to help sustain external iconography while bouncing from Node-to-Node. How do you handle (or explain) external VR visualization of players (in Node) surroundings? Thanks, ~GTT |
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Nov 3 2006, 08:53 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 340 Joined: 18-September 06 From: Chicago (CZ) Member No.: 9,422 |
I'll take a stab at this....
Consider the icons like you said, as islands. But in a city those islands would be buildings. Think of each building as a node and relate it to being a coordinate system. Ie: this node is located at this coordinate while the node i have to go to is like another coordinate. It's esentially like the matrix movie's when in full vr and that tom cruise movie in ar. Therefore I would assume you provide your own reality filter based on the programed settings in your comlink (think the xbox live memory drives where you can register your screen name and create a profile). So like you thought nodes and Systems may or may-not allow connected Nodes to share their external Iconography dependant on how secure or non secure the system is (public vs. private or layers of both). How do you handle (or explain) external VR visualization of players (in Node) surroundings? Well depends on where they are. I'm assuming Aztechnology will have a jungle desert looking feel to it while Ares might look like a smithy. Does that help? |
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Nov 3 2006, 09:01 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Problem is in RAW, you can't have a Node in a node. You can't have a larger "super node" that contains more Nodes/Systems. My understanding of SR4 is that you have to visualize the matrix from the Node you are currently occupying. The Node can let external connections "pass in" visualization information, or deny them leaving only its own visualization data or your Persona's. |
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Nov 3 2006, 09:06 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 340 Joined: 18-September 06 From: Chicago (CZ) Member No.: 9,422 |
so you dont envision them as having layers? 1 node and a million layers that make up that node? Like a room in a building would be considered a differant node but the stuff in the room would be your info and pay data.
Hmmm.... anyone else got an idea? |
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Nov 3 2006, 09:09 PM
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#5
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Without a reality filter how does my node/commlink present the image of an external node/commlink?
There's no reason it can't be presented just like it used to be. I would think as part of any node identifying itself it would have information telling what it would like to be displayed as. |
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Nov 3 2006, 09:31 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
You have a built-in RF to do basic interpretation, but it provides no bonuses. I was referring to loading a Reality Filter program in my example that tries and force your Reality over that of the Node you occupy.
The elements that make up the matrix have changed. Pre-SR4 there was a host system be it LTG/RTG/PLTG. That host would provide the "look and feel" of the surrounding evironment all the systems it would host sit in. Visual information was passed to LTG/RTG/PLTG so you could visualize it while you where in the LTG/RTG/PLTG. With SR4, there is no host system. You login directly to a Node. Unless there are public access nodes available to present the visualization of say, Downtown Seattle, and unless the Node you occupy permits "outside" visual information from other connected Nodes, you'll only see what the Node permits you to see. Yes the matrix could work the same as it has in the past but that would require Nodes you occupy to show connected Node information. You have to get the visual info from someplace to know and see what's around you. |
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Nov 4 2006, 12:28 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I think that your commlink is still connected to some kind of general telecommunication grid. It could be made by hopping from nodes to nodes, but this would considerably slow down traffic, this would be terrible for privacy and that'd prevent megacorps and states from listening to your conversations.
The way I view it, it's still a bit like previous editions : you persona starts in your commlink. If you exit your commlink from the "door", you come out in a "city" with nodes being buildings. Bigger network can still appear as buildings with independant nodes being rooms : the nodes are linked together (maybe through subscription) and appear together in the Matrix. This way, the Matrix Topology isn't always exactly the same as the Real World topolgy : if a node in Seattle is linked to a node in Tokyo, in the Matrix you'll see the two of them together in the same building. |
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Nov 4 2006, 06:07 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
There is no mention of TelComGrids or a "Host" or "Providers" in SR4. You could abstract LTG/RTG/PLTG as "supernodes" but I don't see a hint at anything like that in SR4.
Another thing to consider is that in order to make a Comlink call, you'd have to hop nodes to deliver your message as well as receive calls which means there's probably a service provider somplace. IF not and SR4 is indeed just one big-ass collection of Nodes, lots of those nodes would be letting "public" traffic use them to bounce messages. Otherwise, it would be a combination of satelites and nodes to relay the messages. Maybe my perspective is off here, but I am doing my best to piece this together from RAW. Thanks all for your insights so far. :cyber: |
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Nov 4 2006, 07:57 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Found it. Here it is :
So, I think that explains clearly what it's like, and it seems to be the same way it was before. Your commlink connects to public wi-fi routers (signal 6 - 10km (in the Signal Rating table)) or to the residential/business wifi router if you're at home or at work. In the first case, your node appears in the virtual "street" while in the second case it'll appear in the virtual "building" (a small network inside the telecommunication grid). |
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Nov 5 2006, 03:49 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,371 |
Strangley enough, in "On the Run" it mentions one of the NPCs giving the characters her LTG number when they want to speak to her. Being from England (and also assuming that there was no LTG in 2070), it took me a little while to figure out what it was talking about. |
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Nov 6 2006, 12:03 AM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Still no mention of a service provider, just folks sharing connections allowing others to hope across their nodes that form a communications grid (one large mesh). This is no AT&T 2070, no XBell, no Service Providers, just a collection of individual efforts. We could assume that nodes let traffic pass through them since there is no "cost" for bandwidth like present-day. We could also assume visualization data is also allowed to pass, although I could see some nodes denying some of this sort of traffic. As far as an LTG Number goes, it would have to change to the individual commcode since there is no Service Provider to manage a device/LTG# relationship. It would be like talking using IP addresses. |
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Nov 6 2006, 08:32 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I think there are service providers (just because corps won't lose this opportunity to get some money off your back even if bandwith is free) : you need to have one to register to a public wifi access point (I know registering to something public sounds weird, but that may be the case). Through this public access node you can access to nodes outside your signal (in this case, the "visual" information is relayed by the node).
Apart from that, you can still see the nodes that are in both ranges of your signal and their (if they aren't in hidden mode), but they won't relay traffic from your node if they aren't setup to do it. |
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Nov 6 2006, 09:13 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Communicating using hardcoded device addresses, without any central infrastructure? With the path to reach your address changing constantly, but there is no way to tell anyone what it is? This means that either every node needs to need to maintain state on where every other umpteen billion device is (which changes several time a second as each device moves maybe a meter) or it doesn't work. Somehow I feel obliged to vote for "It doesn't work". |
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Nov 6 2006, 01:43 PM
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#14
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
In Runner Havens it describes the view of all Seattle Nodes as the "Emerald City" theme as a default. Nodes do present an external view. |
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Nov 6 2006, 06:09 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I am inclinded to agree 100%. I just don't see any underlying mechanism in SR4 to support the Matrix. If there is, they are being really, really general about it. |
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Nov 6 2006, 06:20 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
There is a central infrastructure : the telecommunication grid. You connect to the closest public wi-fi router, which registers your presence and forwards your communications to you, just like it's done today with mobile phones (except for satellite based mobile-phones).
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Nov 6 2006, 06:21 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I thought that it said in the book that commcodes are registered through telecomm services. (Runners using "black" commcodes that are faked by means not all that different from fake SINs, I imagine.) I don't know how much more plausible that makes it, because I don't really know a lot about telecommunications networks so I don't think too hard about it.
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Nov 6 2006, 06:44 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If you PAY someone to maintain a central registry this becomes vaguely doable. You end up, in theory, with proxy mobile IP that works. However you need very fast and low latency links to the registry. The issue I'd see is that unless there is a real structure imposed on the network, a real carrier whose job it is to keep you connected or have a huge number of registries you are going to get dropped a lot. For example, assume your registry is on the other side of the world, say 20,000 km as the fiber goes. Speed of light in fiber is 200,000 KM/sec. Assume you are switching nodes 3 times a second (a fairly minimal number in a car at 30+ meters a second). You have, 3 times a second, a 0.2 second process where you are telling the registry how to reach you as you are handed off to anther node. So you have 40% of the time that you can actually conduct a conversation. I'll suggest that this is not what most people consider acceptable. And there is also a huge vulnerability here to a denial of service attack. Want to keep Joe from getting a call? Have 10 streams of data providing routing changes streaming at his providers registry at 2 times per second each. You could argue "encryption!" but RAW has stupidly declared that encryption doesn't work. So you're screwed. You should probably not use the phrase Wi-Fi, it just confuses matters since the game is suggesting something that has a lot more capability, intelligence and bandwidth than the wireless hub that is modern Wi-Fi. |
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Nov 6 2006, 08:10 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I use wi-fi, because the BBB uses wifi to describe wireless matrix connexions.
Anyway, cell-phones work, Wi-max is supposed to work in mobile communications (don't know how that particular use is called in English) why couldn't mobile matrix connexion work ? Also (and more importantly and to the point), why should we bother about wondering if it's possible with today technology to play it in a fictional universe set in 2070 ? But I guess that asking this is pointless in DSF ;) |
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Nov 6 2006, 10:07 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Your dwell time with a wireless phone is a lot longer, as they have ranges of miles, not meters. Your handset is typically communicating to multiple towers that carry signals from the same company at the same time, with the handset choosing the "best" signal based on power and carrier, changing towers as it needs to. The actual handoff and background routing change is possible on the basis that both signals are run by the same carrier, are trusted, are using the same network and all use the same gateways to route traffic, all of which are not too far from the handset in terms of speed of light and the handoff process can be allowed to take a few seconds. This works because the infrastructure is owned by one company. Roaming works with a bunch of companies because they are highly motivated to work closely together because of the money they make by handling your calls, and are trusted to share data because of this relationship. To make this work the way many people seem to interpret the matrix as working requires that you trust every node to update how to reach you and to do it on a really rapid basis. Which means, among other issues, that it's trivially easy to listen to every piece off data that goes to your comlink or to shut it down completely. |
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Nov 6 2006, 10:27 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
In the BBB, it is stated that public routers have a 10km range so that should be enough for roaming, shouldn't it ?
Sure, it's not as secure as a runner may like it to be but the data is encrypted (yeah I know encryption rules are kinda broken (even if there are some ways to work around that). But it's hard to allow PC hackers to listen to other's communication while still allowing secure communications for others), lost in the whole traffic, and routed through some anonymizer service (so you can follow the packets until some node but no further. No way to tell if your "I'm gonna kill the senator tonight" is aimed at some MMORPG or is a real criminal message (but if you aren't stupid, you don't put it that way)), with a clever use of the spoof program, you may even be able to hide your packets as other traffic (control traffic with hidden data for example). But for sure, as in a lot of situations, being unconspicuous (no obviously criminal communication, no strange data coming out from your commlinks) and blending in the crowd is the best way to go anonymously. |
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Nov 6 2006, 10:32 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
This is what has me scratching my head about SR4. You'd need a solid infrastructure to make something with the magnitude of the Matrix work. I don't buy into a very open, very public Telecom Grid. |
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Nov 6 2006, 11:57 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
They can say whatever they like. Very low power, very high speed, small profile communications devices (like the comlinks are described) are not compatible with 10 km ranges. The mesh network as described is more of a 10 meter range, not a 10km range. Cell phone signals are much lower bandwidth and your tower density is higher than that. And you need to charge you battery after a few hours of use. |
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Nov 7 2006, 01:01 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Let's put aside any "realistic" considerations (it's a future where loading a program in your brain allows you to get a full knowledge of something dammit !)
Anyway, it wouldn't work this way, I forgot that the router has to be in the range of the commlink's signal. (This means that the Meta Link commlink with rating 2 signal (100m) can't work well as a mobile communication device) Back to the signal table, we have rating 3 signal for "average commlinks" (average meaning here "your everyday commlink" not mathematical average) and for "residential/small business routers". So here is how I see it now (all considerations of the realism of microwave transmissions set aside) : Your commlink is connected to, at least, the nearest residential router (or directly to a public router). The only way to get a connection is to have a valid commcode (which means that you pay a provider that takes care (or pays someone to take care) of the infrastructure (functionnal routers every 300 meters for example)). The residential routers form a network (an "island") linked to the nearest public router. The public routers are "archipelagoes" uniting those small islands. These biggers islands are then linked together to create the full telecommunication grid. This indeed need to use huge registers able to switch quickly. Some kind of dynamic telephone switches. But we're in the future, so we don't have any trouble with that... |
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Nov 7 2006, 10:55 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As far as range is concerned, I always pictured it as needing to be within range of a device which is in range of a device which is in range of a .... within range of a router.
So that Metalink would be cool as long as it stays within 100m of anything else (like another Commlink) that is within its effective range from another connected device. Otherwise, 100m is fucked! |
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