 SR gunfighting rules of engagement, #21 gets my vote! |
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  Nov 13 2006, 08:23 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
Handy checklist before the guns start blazin. (Grabbed this from HERE)
Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol’…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can't say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines. Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight: 1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. 2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. 3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. 4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly. 5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.) 6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. 7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived. 8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. 9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. 10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty. 11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. 12. Have a plan. 13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. 14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. 15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours. 16. Don't drop your guard. 17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. 18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them. 19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. 20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get. 21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. 22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one. 23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. 24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4." |
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Nov 13 2006, 08:31 PM
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#2
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
25. when the backup plan from #13 fails, call for air support and artillery to flatten the area. :silly:
interesting list. and for some reason i would say it fits just as nicely into a wild west scenario... |
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Nov 13 2006, 08:48 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
In my experience, the airstrikes and arty is ususally the Plan B mentioned in #13. |
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Nov 13 2006, 09:02 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Excellent list. Some of my particular favorites:
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. My DM makes fun of me because I had to add an addendum to my "Ranged Weapons" list. But I say you just never know which gun you'll need. 8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. So true, and so underused in SR. We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical. Very handy. 10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty. HA! So true. But the absolute best one: 13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. That applies to every damn part of life I can think of. |
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Nov 13 2006, 09:35 PM
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#5
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Yeah, KK definitely subscribes to this rule and she would add: 24a. ...and defintiely pack more than one. |
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Nov 14 2006, 02:19 AM
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#6
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thats covered by rule 1...
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Nov 14 2006, 04:36 AM
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#7
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas. |
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Nov 14 2006, 04:47 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i imagine if nothing else, it's handy to have someone who's watching the overall situation.
too often you can get focused on what you yourself are doing, and you forget about teamwork... which of course makes your life much harder than it needs to be. |
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Nov 14 2006, 04:55 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
On the other hand, having one person dedicated to tactical frees the other players from having to think tactically, which really speeds up combat. So long as the players are OK with taking orders, this works great.
The orders should always be in game orders, though, never out of character orders to use specific rules options or the like. Any good leader knows that you don't micromanage. You give the person their goals and their timetable (Geek that mage and do it fast!) but you don't tell the person how to do it. |
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Nov 14 2006, 01:05 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 7-December 02 Member No.: 3,698 |
21 has been a favorite for some time now. :)
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Nov 14 2006, 04:03 PM
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#11
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...ooops, the Kid only has a Logic of 2, (originally 1 until recently). She has whatever the opposite of "photographic memory" is. Heck, watchers are almost her equal... |
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Nov 14 2006, 04:26 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
It's a combination of rp and in game. Our GM created a new skill called "Small Unit Tactics" tied to logic, no defaulting. Using that allows for bonuses to init, and possibly other stuff. In addition, he just sits back and watches us all, and keeps in comm contact with everyone. When a decision has to be made (geek the surrending mage, or take his offer?), he makes the call. He also only has one IP, so really, he doesn't have much mechanical stuff to watch, so he can think, instead of counting ammo. ;) |
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Nov 14 2006, 04:42 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
I would only agree to this in regards to Pistols. Revolvers, on the other hand, its starting with .35 357 is more than adequate and also has more overall ft-lbs than a .45. I don't feel insecure with a 38spl either. both great rounds. But for Pistols .45acp is king IMHO.. great recoil, good power, good hole. |
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Nov 14 2006, 05:20 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If .38 Special is enough in a revolver, 9x19mm is more than enough in a semi-auto.
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Nov 14 2006, 05:45 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
9mm is over rated but a revolver is fine, as a weapon of last resort, in both RL and game my weapons either have to be 45 hundreths of an inch, or larger, or be rated as grenade launchers or cannon.
and dont say elves cant carry big guns, Long range shots (aka Sniping)=panther assault cannon/.50cal sniper rifle or modified single shot 20mm cannon moderate to short range= Combat shotgun with drum mag loaded with slug(exex in game) followed by large heavy pistols up close and personal=twin short swords, or hand and a half and long knife |
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Nov 14 2006, 08:06 PM
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#16
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
on other words, no such thing as overkill?
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Nov 14 2006, 08:50 PM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Damn straight! |
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Nov 15 2006, 12:23 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
why go deer hunting with a rifle when you could use a grenade launcher?
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Nov 15 2006, 01:20 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091 |
The big problem with the 9mm is too light and too fast. The 9mm is 115 grains at 1200+ feet/sec exit muzzle velocity. .45 is 230 grains at 850 feet/sec. The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer. The .44 is very similar. I dont have the .44 stats off the top of my head. The .40 is the good middle ground between the 9mm and .45. dog |
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Nov 15 2006, 04:50 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Not with good modern ammo. modern hollowpoints etc make the 9mm hugely more effective. But you should never expect a one round stop with any small arm. Ever see the dash tape of SCHP officer Mark Coates getting killed? The drug smuggler pulls a .22 and puts a bullet into Coat's vest. Coates then hit the guy (who was not wearing body armor) 5 times with a .357 in the torso. The guy, on his back, then shot a second .22, which killed Coates. The drug smuggler is, last I hear, still in jail on a life sentence after recovering pretty much completely. Pistol bullets are just not particularly effective, no matter the caliber, in stopping a determined opponent unless you get a CNS hit. You are better off with a .45 than .32, but they are just different grades of not very good. None of them are nearly as effective as a shotgun, and I know a cop who chased a guy for a mile after the guy was shot with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. |
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Nov 15 2006, 05:29 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
We've yet to see SUT make an apperance since SR3 but it's a handy once to have just for this sort of situation. In SR3, the mode of communication (BattleTac, Visual Only, Audio, etc) would help make SUT more beneficial and in SR4 I'd guess it all those translate into dice pool modifiers. |
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Nov 15 2006, 05:41 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There's always the Tactics Specialization of the Leadership Skill. ;) |
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Nov 15 2006, 06:33 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A 9x19mm 124gr FMJ at ~1200fps penetrates around 28" of tissue, a .45 ACP 230gr FMJ at 850fps manages a few inches less. With poor ammunition, either will penetrate right through your opponent at any engagement angle while leaving behind a rather small hole. With the right ammunition, both will penetrate 15" +/- 3" while one leaves a 0.55"-0.65" hole and the other a 0.65"-0.75" hole. One great advantage of the .45 ACP is that even if the ammunition malfunctions you are likely to get deep penetration and a bullet frontal area at least 0.451" in diameter. Neither hits like any sledgehammer I've ever seen. The mechanics of a .44 Magnum impact are more like those of a 9x19mm than a .45 ACP because the velocities are relatively high, only you get a wider and much deeper cavity, unless the bullet goes to pieces. |
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Nov 15 2006, 03:20 PM
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#24
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
The bruises that I have seen after a .45 was stopped by a vest are similar to being hit with a 5lb sledge in full armor (Chain and Plate over Gambeson). She said the bullet knocked her breath out for a second and left her shoulder tender for a few days, which describes being hit by a small sledge fairly well.
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Nov 15 2006, 03:35 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A .45 stopped by a vest rated to protect against it may just manage to be as dangerous as a sloppy blow by a light sledgehammer on extremely heavy armor. You could say the same about having a small rock thrown at you.
You can find a few stories of people having been shot in body armor with various guns here. More than a few barely even notice that they've been shot. The psychological effects vary hugely with some. |
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