IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> SR gunfighting rules of engagement, #21 gets my vote!
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 13 2006, 08:23 PM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



Handy checklist before the guns start blazin. (Grabbed this from HERE)

Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting

The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol’…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can't say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines.

Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight:

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Nov 13 2006, 08:31 PM
Post #2


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



25. when the backup plan from #13 fails, call for air support and artillery to flatten the area. :silly:

interesting list. and for some reason i would say it fits just as nicely into a wild west scenario...

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DragginSPADE
post Nov 13 2006, 08:48 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 130
Joined: 25-February 05
Member No.: 7,119



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
25. when the backup plan from #13 fails, call for air support and artillery to flatten the area. :silly:


In my experience, the airstrikes and arty is ususally the Plan B mentioned in #13.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lorechaser
post Nov 13 2006, 09:02 PM
Post #4


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,333
Joined: 19-August 06
From: Austin
Member No.: 9,168



Excellent list. Some of my particular favorites:

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

My DM makes fun of me because I had to add an addendum to my "Ranged Weapons" list. But I say you just never know which gun you'll need.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

So true, and so underused in SR. We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical. Very handy.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

HA! So true.

But the absolute best one:

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

That applies to every damn part of life I can think of.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kyoto Kid
post Nov 13 2006, 09:35 PM
Post #5


Bushido Cowgirl
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490



QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

...Yeah, KK definitely subscribes to this rule

and she would add: 24a. ...and defintiely pack more than one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Nov 14 2006, 02:19 AM
Post #6


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



thats covered by rule 1...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post Nov 14 2006, 04:36 AM
Post #7


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 13 2006, 04:02 PM)
So true, and so underused in SR.  We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical.  Very handy.

How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Nov 14 2006, 04:47 AM
Post #8


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



i imagine if nothing else, it's handy to have someone who's watching the overall situation.

too often you can get focused on what you yourself are doing, and you forget about teamwork... which of course makes your life much harder than it needs to be.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PlatonicPimp
post Nov 14 2006, 04:55 AM
Post #9


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,219
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lofwyr's stomach.
Member No.: 1,320



On the other hand, having one person dedicated to tactical frees the other players from having to think tactically, which really speeds up combat. So long as the players are OK with taking orders, this works great.

The orders should always be in game orders, though, never out of character orders to use specific rules options or the like. Any good leader knows that you don't micromanage. You give the person their goals and their timetable (Geek that mage and do it fast!) but you don't tell the person how to do it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Justin Cray
post Nov 14 2006, 01:05 PM
Post #10


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 7-December 02
Member No.: 3,698



21 has been a favorite for some time now. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kyoto Kid
post Nov 14 2006, 04:03 PM
Post #11


Bushido Cowgirl
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
thats covered by rule 1...

...ooops, the Kid only has a Logic of 2, (originally 1 until recently). She has whatever the opposite of "photographic memory" is.

Heck, watchers are almost her equal...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lorechaser
post Nov 14 2006, 04:26 PM
Post #12


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,333
Joined: 19-August 06
From: Austin
Member No.: 9,168



QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 13 2006, 04:02 PM)
So true, and so underused in SR.  We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical.  Very handy.

How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas.

It's a combination of rp and in game. Our GM created a new skill called "Small Unit Tactics" tied to logic, no defaulting. Using that allows for bonuses to init, and possibly other stuff.

In addition, he just sits back and watches us all, and keeps in comm contact with everyone. When a decision has to be made (geek the surrending mage, or take his offer?), he makes the call. He also only has one IP, so really, he doesn't have much mechanical stuff to watch, so he can think, instead of counting ammo. ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Exodus
post Nov 14 2006, 04:42 PM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 71
Joined: 29-July 06
From: Orlando, FL
Member No.: 8,981



QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

...Yeah, KK definitely subscribes to this rule

and she would add: 24a. ...and defintiely pack more than one.

I would only agree to this in regards to Pistols.

Revolvers, on the other hand, its starting with .35

357 is more than adequate and also has more overall ft-lbs than a .45. I don't feel insecure with a 38spl either. both great rounds. But for Pistols .45acp is king IMHO.. great recoil, good power, good hole.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 14 2006, 05:20 PM
Post #14


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



If .38 Special is enough in a revolver, 9x19mm is more than enough in a semi-auto.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
warrior_allanon
post Nov 14 2006, 05:45 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 775
Joined: 31-March 05
From: florida
Member No.: 7,273



9mm is over rated but a revolver is fine, as a weapon of last resort, in both RL and game my weapons either have to be 45 hundreths of an inch, or larger, or be rated as grenade launchers or cannon.

and dont say elves cant carry big guns,
Long range shots (aka Sniping)=panther assault cannon/.50cal sniper rifle or modified single shot 20mm cannon
moderate to short range= Combat shotgun with drum mag loaded with slug(exex in game) followed by large heavy pistols
up close and personal=twin short swords, or hand and a half and long knife
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Nov 14 2006, 08:06 PM
Post #16


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



on other words, no such thing as overkill?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Nov 14 2006, 08:50 PM
Post #17


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
on other words, no such thing as overkill?

Damn straight!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Nov 15 2006, 12:23 AM
Post #18


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



why go deer hunting with a rifle when you could use a grenade launcher?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dog_xinu
post Nov 15 2006, 01:20 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 289
Joined: 20-February 04
From: in the matrix
Member No.: 6,091



QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
If .38 Special is enough in a revolver, 9x19mm is more than enough in a semi-auto.

The big problem with the 9mm is too light and too fast. The 9mm is 115 grains at 1200+ feet/sec exit muzzle velocity. .45 is 230 grains at 850 feet/sec. The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer. The .44 is very similar. I dont have the .44 stats off the top of my head. The .40 is the good middle ground between the 9mm and .45.

dog
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Nov 15 2006, 04:50 AM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (dog_xinu)
The big problem with the 9mm is too light and too fast. The 9mm is 115 grains at 1200+ feet/sec exit muzzle velocity. .45 is 230 grains at 850 feet/sec. The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer.

Not with good modern ammo. modern hollowpoints etc make the 9mm hugely more effective.

But you should never expect a one round stop with any small arm. Ever see the dash tape of SCHP officer Mark Coates getting killed? The drug smuggler pulls a .22 and puts a bullet into Coat's vest. Coates then hit the guy (who was not wearing body armor) 5 times with a .357 in the torso. The guy, on his back, then shot a second .22, which killed Coates. The drug smuggler is, last I hear, still in jail on a life sentence after recovering pretty much completely.

Pistol bullets are just not particularly effective, no matter the caliber, in stopping a determined opponent unless you get a CNS hit. You are better off with a .45 than .32, but they are just different grades of not very good. None of them are nearly as effective as a shotgun, and I know a cop who chased a guy for a mile after the guy was shot with a 12 gauge shotgun slug.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 15 2006, 05:29 AM
Post #21


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Nov 13 2006, 11:36 PM)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 13 2006, 04:02 PM)
So true, and so underused in SR.  We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical.  Very handy.

How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas.

It's a combination of rp and in game. Our GM created a new skill called "Small Unit Tactics" tied to logic, no defaulting. Using that allows for bonuses to init, and possibly other stuff.

We've yet to see SUT make an apperance since SR3 but it's a handy once to have just for this sort of situation. In SR3, the mode of communication (BattleTac, Visual Only, Audio, etc) would help make SUT more beneficial and in SR4 I'd guess it all those translate into dice pool modifiers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Nov 15 2006, 05:41 AM
Post #22


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 15 2006, 04:29 PM)
We've yet to see SUT make an apperance since SR3 but it's a handy once to have just for this sort of situation.

There's always the Tactics Specialization of the Leadership Skill. ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 15 2006, 06:33 AM
Post #23


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (dog_xinu)
The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer.

A 9x19mm 124gr FMJ at ~1200fps penetrates around 28" of tissue, a .45 ACP 230gr FMJ at 850fps manages a few inches less. With poor ammunition, either will penetrate right through your opponent at any engagement angle while leaving behind a rather small hole. With the right ammunition, both will penetrate 15" +/- 3" while one leaves a 0.55"-0.65" hole and the other a 0.65"-0.75" hole. One great advantage of the .45 ACP is that even if the ammunition malfunctions you are likely to get deep penetration and a bullet frontal area at least 0.451" in diameter. Neither hits like any sledgehammer I've ever seen.

The mechanics of a .44 Magnum impact are more like those of a 9x19mm than a .45 ACP because the velocities are relatively high, only you get a wider and much deeper cavity, unless the bullet goes to pieces.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BishopMcQ
post Nov 15 2006, 03:20 PM
Post #24


The back-up plan
**********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 8,423
Joined: 15-January 03
From: San Diego
Member No.: 3,910



The bruises that I have seen after a .45 was stopped by a vest are similar to being hit with a 5lb sledge in full armor (Chain and Plate over Gambeson). She said the bullet knocked her breath out for a second and left her shoulder tender for a few days, which describes being hit by a small sledge fairly well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 15 2006, 03:35 PM
Post #25


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



A .45 stopped by a vest rated to protect against it may just manage to be as dangerous as a sloppy blow by a light sledgehammer on extremely heavy armor. You could say the same about having a small rock thrown at you.

You can find a few stories of people having been shot in body armor with various guns here. More than a few barely even notice that they've been shot. The psychological effects vary hugely with some.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th July 2024 - 06:41 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.