Handy checklist before the guns start blazin. (Grabbed this from HERE)
Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting
The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol’…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can't say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines.
Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight:
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."
Full Version: SR gunfighting rules of engagement
25. when the backup plan from #13 fails, call for air support and artillery to flatten the area. 
interesting list. and for some reason i would say it fits just as nicely into a wild west scenario...
interesting list. and for some reason i would say it fits just as nicely into a wild west scenario...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| 25. when the backup plan from #13 fails, call for air support and artillery to flatten the area. |
In my experience, the airstrikes and arty is ususally the Plan B mentioned in #13.
Excellent list. Some of my particular favorites:
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
My DM makes fun of me because I had to add an addendum to my "Ranged Weapons" list. But I say you just never know which gun you'll need.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
So true, and so underused in SR. We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical. Very handy.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
HA! So true.
But the absolute best one:
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
That applies to every damn part of life I can think of.
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
My DM makes fun of me because I had to add an addendum to my "Ranged Weapons" list. But I say you just never know which gun you'll need.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
So true, and so underused in SR. We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical. Very handy.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
HA! So true.
But the absolute best one:
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
That applies to every damn part of life I can think of.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| 24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4." |
...Yeah, KK definitely subscribes to this rule
and she would add: 24a. ...and defintiely pack more than one.
thats covered by rule 1...
| QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 13 2006, 04:02 PM) |
| So true, and so underused in SR. We have a pc who is a Face w/o no combat skills to speak of - he handles our tactical. Very handy. |
How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas.
i imagine if nothing else, it's handy to have someone who's watching the overall situation.
too often you can get focused on what you yourself are doing, and you forget about teamwork... which of course makes your life much harder than it needs to be.
too often you can get focused on what you yourself are doing, and you forget about teamwork... which of course makes your life much harder than it needs to be.
On the other hand, having one person dedicated to tactical frees the other players from having to think tactically, which really speeds up combat. So long as the players are OK with taking orders, this works great.
The orders should always be in game orders, though, never out of character orders to use specific rules options or the like. Any good leader knows that you don't micromanage. You give the person their goals and their timetable (Geek that mage and do it fast!) but you don't tell the person how to do it.
The orders should always be in game orders, though, never out of character orders to use specific rules options or the like. Any good leader knows that you don't micromanage. You give the person their goals and their timetable (Geek that mage and do it fast!) but you don't tell the person how to do it.
21 has been a favorite for some time now. 
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| thats covered by rule 1... |
...ooops, the Kid only has a Logic of 2, (originally 1 until recently). She has whatever the opposite of "photographic memory" is.
Heck, watchers are almost her equal...
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
How does that work? Specifically, how do you implement having one player doing tactical at the table? I ask because I'd like some ideas. |
It's a combination of rp and in game. Our GM created a new skill called "Small Unit Tactics" tied to logic, no defaulting. Using that allows for bonuses to init, and possibly other stuff.
In addition, he just sits back and watches us all, and keeps in comm contact with everyone. When a decision has to be made (geek the surrending mage, or take his offer?), he makes the call. He also only has one IP, so really, he doesn't have much mechanical stuff to watch, so he can think, instead of counting ammo.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...Yeah, KK definitely subscribes to this rule and she would add: 24a. ...and defintiely pack more than one. |
I would only agree to this in regards to Pistols.
Revolvers, on the other hand, its starting with .35
357 is more than adequate and also has more overall ft-lbs than a .45. I don't feel insecure with a 38spl either. both great rounds. But for Pistols .45acp is king IMHO.. great recoil, good power, good hole.
If .38 Special is enough in a revolver, 9x19mm is more than enough in a semi-auto.
9mm is over rated but a revolver is fine, as a weapon of last resort, in both RL and game my weapons either have to be 45 hundreths of an inch, or larger, or be rated as grenade launchers or cannon.
and dont say elves cant carry big guns,
Long range shots (aka Sniping)=panther assault cannon/.50cal sniper rifle or modified single shot 20mm cannon
moderate to short range= Combat shotgun with drum mag loaded with slug(exex in game) followed by large heavy pistols
up close and personal=twin short swords, or hand and a half and long knife
and dont say elves cant carry big guns,
Long range shots (aka Sniping)=panther assault cannon/.50cal sniper rifle or modified single shot 20mm cannon
moderate to short range= Combat shotgun with drum mag loaded with slug(exex in game) followed by large heavy pistols
up close and personal=twin short swords, or hand and a half and long knife
on other words, no such thing as overkill?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| on other words, no such thing as overkill? |
Damn straight!
why go deer hunting with a rifle when you could use a grenade launcher?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| If .38 Special is enough in a revolver, 9x19mm is more than enough in a semi-auto. |
The big problem with the 9mm is too light and too fast. The 9mm is 115 grains at 1200+ feet/sec exit muzzle velocity. .45 is 230 grains at 850 feet/sec. The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer. The .44 is very similar. I dont have the .44 stats off the top of my head. The .40 is the good middle ground between the 9mm and .45.
dog
| QUOTE (dog_xinu) |
| The big problem with the 9mm is too light and too fast. The 9mm is 115 grains at 1200+ feet/sec exit muzzle velocity. .45 is 230 grains at 850 feet/sec. The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer. |
Not with good modern ammo. modern hollowpoints etc make the 9mm hugely more effective.
But you should never expect a one round stop with any small arm. Ever see the dash tape of SCHP officer Mark Coates getting killed? The drug smuggler pulls a .22 and puts a bullet into Coat's vest. Coates then hit the guy (who was not wearing body armor) 5 times with a .357 in the torso. The guy, on his back, then shot a second .22, which killed Coates. The drug smuggler is, last I hear, still in jail on a life sentence after recovering pretty much completely.
Pistol bullets are just not particularly effective, no matter the caliber, in stopping a determined opponent unless you get a CNS hit. You are better off with a .45 than .32, but they are just different grades of not very good. None of them are nearly as effective as a shotgun, and I know a cop who chased a guy for a mile after the guy was shot with a 12 gauge shotgun slug.
| QUOTE (lorechaser) | ||||
It's a combination of rp and in game. Our GM created a new skill called "Small Unit Tactics" tied to logic, no defaulting. Using that allows for bonuses to init, and possibly other stuff. |
We've yet to see SUT make an apperance since SR3 but it's a handy once to have just for this sort of situation. In SR3, the mode of communication (BattleTac, Visual Only, Audio, etc) would help make SUT more beneficial and in SR4 I'd guess it all those translate into dice pool modifiers.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 15 2006, 04:29 PM) |
| We've yet to see SUT make an apperance since SR3 but it's a handy once to have just for this sort of situation. |
There's always the Tactics Specialization of the Leadership Skill.
| QUOTE (dog_xinu) |
| The 9mm pierces right through the target and keeps going. Where as the .45 hits you like a sledge hammer. |
A 9x19mm 124gr FMJ at ~1200fps penetrates around 28" of tissue, a .45 ACP 230gr FMJ at 850fps manages a few inches less. With poor ammunition, either will penetrate right through your opponent at any engagement angle while leaving behind a rather small hole. With the right ammunition, both will penetrate 15" +/- 3" while one leaves a 0.55"-0.65" hole and the other a 0.65"-0.75" hole. One great advantage of the .45 ACP is that even if the ammunition malfunctions you are likely to get deep penetration and a bullet frontal area at least 0.451" in diameter. Neither hits like any sledgehammer I've ever seen.
The mechanics of a .44 Magnum impact are more like those of a 9x19mm than a .45 ACP because the velocities are relatively high, only you get a wider and much deeper cavity, unless the bullet goes to pieces.
The bruises that I have seen after a .45 was stopped by a vest are similar to being hit with a 5lb sledge in full armor (Chain and Plate over Gambeson). She said the bullet knocked her breath out for a second and left her shoulder tender for a few days, which describes being hit by a small sledge fairly well.
A .45 stopped by a vest rated to protect against it may just manage to be as dangerous as a sloppy blow by a light sledgehammer on extremely heavy armor. You could say the same about having a small rock thrown at you.
You can find a few stories of people having been shot in body armor with various guns here. More than a few barely even notice that they've been shot. The psychological effects vary hugely with some.
You can find a few stories of people having been shot in body armor with various guns here. More than a few barely even notice that they've been shot. The psychological effects vary hugely with some.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2006, 12:41 AM) | ||
There's always the Tactics Specialization of the Leadership Skill. |
We wanted it to be a little more difficult to get than simply picking up the social pool, I think. Otherwise, every face becomes a tactical expert...
It's also odd to have it tied to Cha, instead of Log.
| QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 16 2006, 02:52 AM) |
| We wanted it to be a little more difficult to get than simply picking up the social pool, I think. Otherwise, every face becomes a tactical expert... |
Personally, I would remove Leadership from the Influence Group. If Intimidation has to be a seperate Skill, there's no reason that I can see why Leadership would be grouped with the others.
| QUOTE |
| It's also odd to have it tied to Cha, instead of Log. |
The rules are vague, but they do deal with this sort of thing. They suggest that Skills are not always tied to their respective Attributes, and there are times when another Attribute would make more sense. In the case of Small Unit Tactics, I could see Leadership always being tied to Logic instead of Charisma.
To make good tactical orders would be Logic. To convience NPCs to follow your orders would be Charisma.
I see two different skills here.
I see two different skills here.
Leadership is influencing people.
It may just have been to get people to be more interested in doing character interaction by making cheaper. Personally, I always thought leadership should be out, and intimidation should be in. I figure leadership is more specialized than being a bully. But that's just me.
It may just have been to get people to be more interested in doing character interaction by making cheaper. Personally, I always thought leadership should be out, and intimidation should be in. I figure leadership is more specialized than being a bully. But that's just me.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 16 2006, 10:20 AM) |
| To make good tactical orders would be Logic. To convience NPCs to follow your orders would be Charisma. I see two different skills here. |
Or two seperate and distinct uses of the same Skill.
Nah, you can be a good leader and not know shit about tactics. To my mind, that's like having a politician commanding the army. Oops, that's America! 
Seriously though, it's very easy to convince people to follow you (leadership skill) and then have no idea of what commands to give to be effective.
Seriously though, it's very easy to convince people to follow you (leadership skill) and then have no idea of what commands to give to be effective.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Nah, you can be a good leader and not know shit about tactics. |
That's true. You can also know how to fit in with street people really well, but not know shit about how to get along with businessmen, but both are still covered under Etiquette. You might know how to make firearms really well and know next to nothing about armor construction, but the knowledge of both is covered under the one Armorer Skill. That's just two examples off the top of my head, but there are plenty more.
Unless you want to break down all the Skills into micromanageable super-detail, a little leeway is going to be needed.
honestly, I think on the ettiquette and fire arms/armor, I think they should be broken apart.
So should quite a few others, but then where do you stop? There are already too few BP to go around, without the further drain of splitting Skills even further.
Longarms being both rifles and shotguns drives me nuts too.
I agree that they can't just quick fix it by adding more BPs, because that makes it easier to abuse. And having a ton of skills to distribute to is harder as well. Same for having three different etiquette skills, it's just not practical.
I don't have a fix for it. just one of those things that bugs me.
I agree that they can't just quick fix it by adding more BPs, because that makes it easier to abuse. And having a ton of skills to distribute to is harder as well. Same for having three different etiquette skills, it's just not practical.
I don't have a fix for it. just one of those things that bugs me.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Longarms being both rifles and shotguns drives me nuts too. |
That one doesn't really bother me at all.
Ya' know what, I just typed out this big ol' long rant, but decided this was much better:
it bothers me
it bothers me
I'd say Leadership (tactical) is correctly linked to Charisma.
The skill and specialization are about conveying orders and tactical information rather than recognizing a tactical situation (that would be intuition) or making a tactical decision (which indeed would be logic).
i have a similar list of rules, i bet you will like these:
Rules Of Engagement
* Rule #1: Shoot first, ask questions later.
* Rule #2: If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to
resort to enough of it.
* Rule #3: Mockery and derision have their place. Usually, it's on
the far side of the airlock.
* Rule #4: Never turn your back on an enemy.
* Rule #5: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is
looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
* Rule #6: Do unto others.
* Rule #7: Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has
teeth.
* Rule #8: Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
* Rule #9: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no
more, no less.
* Rule #10: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use,
the further you'll go.
* Rule #11: Only cheaters prosper.
* Rule #12: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger
gun.
* Rule #13: That which does not kill you has made a tactical
error.
* Rule #14: When the going gets tough, the tough call for
close air support.
* Rule #15: There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and
"I need to reload".
The skill and specialization are about conveying orders and tactical information rather than recognizing a tactical situation (that would be intuition) or making a tactical decision (which indeed would be logic).
i have a similar list of rules, i bet you will like these:
Rules Of Engagement
* Rule #1: Shoot first, ask questions later.
* Rule #2: If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to
resort to enough of it.
* Rule #3: Mockery and derision have their place. Usually, it's on
the far side of the airlock.
* Rule #4: Never turn your back on an enemy.
* Rule #5: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is
looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
* Rule #6: Do unto others.
* Rule #7: Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has
teeth.
* Rule #8: Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
* Rule #9: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no
more, no less.
* Rule #10: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use,
the further you'll go.
* Rule #11: Only cheaters prosper.
* Rule #12: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger
gun.
* Rule #13: That which does not kill you has made a tactical
error.
* Rule #14: When the going gets tough, the tough call for
close air support.
* Rule #15: There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and
"I need to reload".
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Ya' know what, I just typed out this big ol' long rant, but decided this was much better: it bothers me |
But I wanna see your big ... rant.
Some things that surface again and again when we are running (too much RP systems with killing XP I guess):
- Shoot first, disengage while their heads are down
- Supressive fire can and should be used while moving
- The enemy has superior numbers, killing grunts does not pay
- Consider what your team is doing. Overkill is nice if you can afford it, being outflanked by the enemy on the other hand...
- Protect your mage and hacker. Else bad things will happen
- Shoot first, disengage while their heads are down
- Supressive fire can and should be used while moving
- The enemy has superior numbers, killing grunts does not pay
- Consider what your team is doing. Overkill is nice if you can afford it, being outflanked by the enemy on the other hand...
- Protect your mage and hacker. Else bad things will happen
| QUOTE (maeel) |
| i have a similar list of rules, i bet you will like these: |
Do you happen to read the webcomic Schlock's Mercenaries?
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
But I wanna see your big ... rant. |
ok fine (sicko). her's a slightly modified rant
Shotguns and rifles have very litte in common IMO. They both sit against your shoulder, you sight down the barrel.
A shotgun has a relatively short range, and is not made for accuracy. It's made to hit a general area. Putting slugs in changes this a bit, but it's still not built for accuracy. It's made to blow the hell out of something. You've got things to factor in like the choke, what shot you're using, and a shorter range. It's for shooting birds, or people at a closer range.
A rifle has, well, for starters, rifling. A scope is a good idea. It's made for range and accuracy. What you'll (or at least I) see most commonly in games are sniper rifles. If you've ever used a shotgun for hunting or skeet shooting, you'd know that the way you use a shotgun is pretty much completely different than a rifle. I personally have never used an actual sniper rifle, like a barret. But I do enjoy shooting rifles in general. The method is completely different.
Tangent:
Reminds me of a brief conversation I had with my Mom (of all people) the other night (my family was raised on firearms. combination of my mom's side growing up on farms and hunting for food, and my grandpa on my dad's side being a gun smith). We were talking about pistols and rifels. Something about planning, rifles and pistols:
She was saying the pistols are for killing people, and rifles are for hunting. I said it was more of a differnece in planning.
If you're hunting with a pistol, you're not planning very well.
If you're killing someone with a rifle, you probably planned it.
A Taser ain't much like a Desert Eagle.
A Crossbow doesn't really use the same Skill as a Pull Bow.
A Switchblade doesn't have a lot in common with a Scimitar.
Sumo Wrestling is somewhat dissimilar to Carromeleg.
Creating Body Armor is not quite the same as Making a Laser Weapon.
Don't even get me started on things like Etiquette and Artisan.
I could go on and on, but the point is that you have to draw the line somewhere.
A Crossbow doesn't really use the same Skill as a Pull Bow.
A Switchblade doesn't have a lot in common with a Scimitar.
Sumo Wrestling is somewhat dissimilar to Carromeleg.
Creating Body Armor is not quite the same as Making a Laser Weapon.
Don't even get me started on things like Etiquette and Artisan.
I could go on and on, but the point is that you have to draw the line somewhere.
I agree, which is precisely why I didn't post the rant in the first place. BUt you asked.
Ok, but do you do anything about it in your games, if it bothers you as much as it does?
no *hangs head*. It just pisses me off is all. Like you said man, there's really no way to fix it without throwing everything out of whack, or micromanaging skills. I jsut encourage specialization, and ignore the whole "if you specialize, the skill is no longer in the group". It's an ugly, dirty, sad little excuse for a fix, but it helps me sleep at night.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| ... and ignore the whole "if you specialize, the skill is no longer in the group". It's an ugly, dirty, sad little excuse for a fix, but it helps me sleep at night. |
Nah, that's an easily ignored bit of fluff.
This needs to be added:
The Caliber of the weapon matters not: Because Kevlar armor does not cover your Face.
The Caliber of the weapon matters not: Because Kevlar armor does not cover your Face.
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| Kevlar armor does not cover your Face. |
Real Ultimate Ninja Armor™ does.
Except the eyes.
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