 Lethality of Magic (even Magic vs Magic) |
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 Nov 14 2006, 09:24 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610  |
Maybe I'm missing a few things....
a lot of things. Let takes a hypothetical, really good hermetic mage, in violent situation. (The numbers below denote dice) Hermetic A Magic 6. Spellcasting 5. Spellcasting Focus (combat) 3. Spellcasting Speciality (combat) 2. Combat enhancing totem spirit 2. 18 Dice. Vs.. the exact counter to that - basically, same dice but the specialties/focii are in Counterspelling (combat). So Hermetic A vs Hermetic B. Where Hermetic B is the really good "combat counterspeller". Now Hermetic A decides to over-cast manaball... (12 Physical + Successes) Is the best defence Hermetic B can offer 18 dice? Is there some personal/shadowrunning group pre-cast magic shielding/warding that can be used? Because based on straight counterspelling - assuming equal skill - you're looking at a 50-50 roll that decides life or death for any character... Sam W. All this in comparisson to a troll who is sporting something like 29 dice of combined Body + Armor to resist damage... |
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Nov 14 2006, 09:34 PM
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#2
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
well, first off, I believe cover still applies for spell casting, as well as other modifiers. Also, shielding. learn it, live it , love it. Third, Abosrtion. Take it, live it, throw it back at the guy that cast it. Just a couple quick thoughts. But yeah, ti is really lethal. That's why you get wired and geek the mage first.
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Nov 14 2006, 09:43 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
I think the best counterspelling that mage can provide is 10 dice: Counterspelling 5 (Combat Spells +2) Counterspelling Focus 3 (Combat Spells) That's added to the targets' resistance stat (Willpower for mana spells). I don't recall any mentor spirits that add to counterspelling. You can increase that with metamagic (like shielding), or through a couple of different spells -- Mana Barrier adds directly to the resistance dice, Astral Static creates a background count, lowering the opponents effective magic rating, etc. Also, spirits who have the Magical Guard ability can provide counterspelling too. |
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Nov 14 2006, 09:46 PM
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#4
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Doesn't Mountain add +2 counterspelling?
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Nov 14 2006, 09:53 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Surprise is your friend.
It's similar with guns, when two really good shooters engage in a one-on-one on a parking lot at noon, the one that goes first will most likely win. |
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Nov 14 2006, 10:07 PM
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#6
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Extreme examples get extreme results.
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Nov 14 2006, 10:19 PM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Yep, and there is no upper limit on the Force of a Counterspelling focus after chargen. If you can get 400 hits on the availability test (and you can, eventually) and you have both 300 spare karma and 500,000 spare nuyen, then you can have yourself 100 dice from a counterspelling focus. Good thing they got rid of Focus addiction, huh? :D A PC is unlikely to get one of these but a powerful NPC certain could, and if your going for epic with no availability limits and absurd starting cash, then such a thing is very possible. |
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Nov 14 2006, 10:21 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
the spell mana barrier is your best freind.
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Nov 14 2006, 10:21 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I could have sword I read focus addiction in Street Magic... |
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Nov 14 2006, 10:24 PM
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#10
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
works differently than before. It used to be, if you had to many foci, they'd become a crutch, until you'd eventaully become dependant on them. Now, it's a choice to be addicted ,like cigarettes. Personally, I like the old version. But I still use grounding.
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Nov 14 2006, 10:26 PM
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#11
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
As a negative quality with the same effects as regular addiction. In previous editions anyone who tried to use a force 100 focus would quickly be rendered mundane unless they had a magic rating of 50 or more. |
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Nov 15 2006, 12:38 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Don't have my SR3 PDFs with me.
But didnt SR3 have a 'spell reistance' spell (like armor but protects against spells). Spell Mana Barrier: You have to cast and hope it is between you and the other caster. Any reason not to bring back a 'spell armor' spell to help out. As to the Counterspelling (combat)- 100 foci. Better hope you are tasty with ketchup... since you are going to be Dragon-chow (or IE plaything). If somebody made anything on that scale, the powers that be would be racing for it like the holy grail. |
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Nov 15 2006, 01:01 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
It should be noted there are various effects to temporary delay the effects of stun damage. So if that Troll just took 12 boxs of stun damage his his adrenaline pump is going he'll havea few combat rounds to pound into before failing unconcious. A stim patch can have a similar effect.
Also with manaball you only need negate the number of hits to negate the entire spell. But still its a problem. I think the real problem in magic is the benfit to overcasting is good but the draw back isn't so bad. *Assume mage has magic 6 Manaballs drain value is (Force divided by 2)+2 A standard manaball cast at force 6 would have a drain value of 5. A manaball overcast to force 12 would have a drain of 8. The second problem is that while the book states stun drain can't be cured with magic it says nothing about physical, but lets not open that can of worms here please. To me that difference isn't enougth. My own little house rule I'd use If i GMed shadowrun. For every point of overcasting you added it twice when caculating drain. So if one has a magic of six and casts a manaball at force 12. They face 11 drain to resist instead of 8 under raw. In this way overcasting becomes dangerious as it will likly leave the mage in a vulnerable postion. |
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Nov 15 2006, 01:26 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Which is my whole reason for the other thread. Limiting overcast force increase to net hits. So magic 5 casting a force 10 manabolt. The 'least effective' 1 Net Hit: The effective Force would be 6: 5 (magic) + 1(net hits) (capped at the cast force). Damage would be force (6) + Net Hits (1). The 'most effective' 5 Net hits: The effective force would be 10 : 5 (magic) + 5 (net hits) (capped at the cast force). Damage taken would be: 15: 10 (force) + 5 (net hits) Extemely sucessfully cast: 7 Net hits The effective force would be 10: 5 (magic) + 5 (net hits, capped by cast force). Damage taken would be: 17: 10 (force) + 7 (net hits) Basically overcasting is not an 'automatic' increase in force, rather it is you through more energy into the spell, but unless you can control that energy (net hits) you dont get the effect of the net hits. (provides a limit to over-casting, that scales nicely. Slight overcasting will almost always be effective. Extreme overcasting might be effective but requires a good casting roll also) |
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Nov 15 2006, 02:28 AM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
OOOOH. I like. |
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Nov 15 2006, 03:32 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
RunerPaul:
Glad you like it. To me it tones down the high-end of overcasting nicely. Giving it the potential to be better, but not automatically better. |
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Nov 15 2006, 02:55 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610 |
Mana-barrier is a static, unmoving "wall" correct? Not some ongoing spell that travels with you/group and affects you wherever you go?
Sam W. |
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Nov 15 2006, 03:41 PM
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#18
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
It's not explicit, but overcasting physical drain is not curable with magic. This is inferred in Street Magic. |
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Nov 15 2006, 04:21 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 6-October 06 From: Chicago Member No.: 9,557 |
Nerhesi, All the area effect spells can be moved with a complex action. So you can move Mana Barrier but it is not automatic.
Also, a Mana Armor spell would be very useful. That would automaticaly travel with you, though it wouldn't cover your team. My group has 3 mages in it and they have never once over casted a spell. They all roleplay well enough to know that their characters would not take the risk of doing that much bodily harm to themselves unless it was a life or death choice. |
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Nov 15 2006, 08:04 PM
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#20
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
It's still in there... but I have Alleviate Addiction on my sustaining focus. :D Back to the original topic though, you'll find the principle of offense being more powerful than defense running throughout the Shadowrun rules. Whether it's magic or firearms or sword fighting, everyone is like an eggshell armed with a hammer. You can change it if you want, but you should realise that it isn't just magic. It's deliberate and it makes the game play very differently to certain other RPGs. It forces reliance on tactics, cunning and deceit. And at least for me, that's the way I like it. |
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Nov 15 2006, 08:26 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
And cover! Never forget cover. |
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Nov 16 2006, 02:04 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
overcast drain is usually referred to as physical damage, which is, in theory, something you can heal. The problem is that a writer somewhere mentioned they intended for neither to be healable, etc, etc. I'm under the impression and belief of healing overcasting damage, mainly because If you're waisting 3-10 combat turns healing that damage, you are a sitting quacker. The optional rule mentioned from SM only says 'drain' when it suggests allowing it to be healed. Now we know you can't heal stun by default, so it leaves room in the book as to what it really meant. Though I do like the overcast = increased net hits style as well, that is very nice, and possibly balanced (as far as balancing magic goes). |
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Nov 16 2006, 01:17 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,691 |
Oh, and you are limited to 5 times your magic rating for total focus rating...
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Nov 16 2006, 04:20 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
FYI, Synner addressed the overcast healing of Physical damage in a post a little while ago. I'm sure it can still be found if people look for it. Essentially, the Street Magic book implies that Physical damage caused by drain cannot be healed by magic (just like stun damage cannot be healed by magic).
Eitherway, it seems apparent that Shadowrun's combat system is meant to be quick and dangerous, moving away from the protracted, hour(s) long fights that often chew up play time in other games like D&D. I find that to be a nice change of pace ;) |
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