 Light Machine Gun?, Worst weapon in the game? |
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 Nov 17 2006, 02:50 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866  |
Compare the White Knight with the Ares Alpha, and tell me, exactly what advantage does the White Knight have, other than being able to be belt fed? A belt does not make up for the double recoil and removal of semi-auto and burst-fire capabilities. |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:05 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Personally I wouldn't use the ingram. I'd go for the Aries Alpha.
The Ingram is good for enemies to the Players. As one of those laying down full auto fire could even make a troll tank dive for cover. Remember many of these weapons may be good on the battle field but not for shadowrunners. Ivan the Ingrim has Burst Fire mode, I'm looking at the book right now as I type and post.. The stoner has the problem. |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:12 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Um... I guess I have to do this, because it's possible you haven't read this bit. The answer is... Five points of internal recoil compensation, as opposed to two! At minimum you'll be firing two bursts a round with both weapons (unmodified), and that means the White Knight's second burst has three extra dice. Every time. For only 300Y. And you can still put an external gas vent on both of them. Three points of internal recoil compensation is FREAKING HUGE. In fact, when you can get it to 8(9) RC for only 400Y, double uncompensated recoil isn't a problem. And it's a damn machine gun, the removal of semi-auto mode is hardly something to worry about. Oh, and it DOES have BF capability. The first time I read the SR4 weapon rules, the White Knight wowed me as the obvious heavy weapon of choice for those who needed one. It is an AWESOME gun. The Stoner-Ares M202 is bollocks in comparison. |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:17 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Actually it comes with a gas vent system so you can't instail another one.
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Nov 17 2006, 03:17 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, you explicitly cannot upgrade the gas vent system. that does still leave bipods, tripods, and gyro-mounts. and tracer rounds too, i suppose, which can also cancel recoil. [edit] blast, beaten to the punch! [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Nov 17 2006, 03:18 AM |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:25 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
I remember reading somewhere that integral accessories did not take up mounts, and that you could then put whatever you want on them. That the Alpha says its 2 points of internal recoil come from "chamber design" and the White Knight says "gas vent" seems like fluff to me. Either they can both be vented, or they can both not be vented.
Even if the Alpha can be vented and the Knight not, the Knight can still be Suppressed while still having enough RC for two bursts. Which is very important, at least in our games. |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:34 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
The Recoil Compensation is easy enough to provide using accessories though. You can get the Ares up to RC of 6 for only another 450, since it can take a gas-vent system, unlike the White Knight, as well as Shock Pads. With the grenade launcher and smartgun system built in, all you need to add is a Airburst Link and Sound Suppressor, and maybe an imaging scope if you don't have cyber eyes to take of that for you, you will have the best damned weapon in the game. Period. After looking at that, the White Knight just makes you think, "Why bother?"
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Nov 17 2006, 03:37 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
From the BBB, on the White Knight: "It's equipped with ... an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded." Thus, if you want more RC with the white knight, you need a bipod/tripod or a gyroscope. Also from BBB, on gas-vent systems: "Weapons already equipped with a built-in gas-vent system cannot be equipped with an additional gas-vent system." |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:42 AM
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#34
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
With the question of why an LMG and not and AR with less recoil, besides the ammo...someone with SR4 rules-fu will have to clear this, but in SR3 Heavy Weapons did normal damage vs. vehicles. Anything under that, including ARs and SMGs, had their damage cut severely while attacking a vehicle.
That was one reason back in the day to carry a LMG vs. AR if you were going against something like that...but i dont recall the SR4 vehicle attack rule and i dont have book in front of me. |
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Nov 17 2006, 03:50 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
No mention in SR4 rules about heavy weapons being better against vehicles than anything else. The only requirement for damaging a vehicle is that the base DV + net hits must be greater than armor - AP.
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Nov 17 2006, 04:00 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There's also no reason why one weapon cannot just be plain outright better than another.
The LMG is a general issue battlefield weapon, and while it may not be available at the local Stuffer Shack™, it is fairly commonly distributed throughout the world. The Alpha, on the other hand, is an elite, special forces-type weapon that has nowhere near the production run, and is probably in quite high demand wherever weapons are needed ... so pretty much anywhere. Damn straight that most people would choose the Alpha if given the chance, but not always as they are really designed for different purpopses. Unfortunately, the Availability rules just don't reflect this aspect. |
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Nov 17 2006, 04:10 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
The big problem with the alpha is you need 2 skills, automatics and heavy weapons (for the grenade launcher).
But even bringing availability and cost into the equation, the Alpha still is preferable. |
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Nov 17 2006, 04:13 AM
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#38
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
you don't NEED it. you can always default.
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Nov 17 2006, 04:13 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And that would be one of the balancing factors that would need to be considered when choosing the weapon. ;) |
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Nov 17 2006, 04:17 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
OK, cool. Mea culpa, I haven't actually played in six months or so, I shouldn't have jumped in with the rules quotes :). However, you can still Suppress a White Knight and get your 5(6) RC without needing to stand still or use a gyromount. That said, the Alpha has an underbarrel grenade launcher instead. So you can make your own conclusions abotu which is the better. But we're *still* comparing two of the best weapons in the book. |
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Nov 17 2006, 04:22 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.
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Nov 17 2006, 04:27 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Even if you could silence it. the nose from the bullets blowing apart the wall would be a dead give away. |
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Nov 17 2006, 04:28 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The Alpha is better, if you are using the automatics skill. If you are using the heavy weapons skill, the Ingram is a good choice for a weapon because of its extra recoil compensation - two points more than a tricked-out MMG can get. Plus, it is much less expensive. And it may not punch through armor like a Panther cannon, but it is actually better at certain roles, such as using bursts to take out two foes instead of one, firing wide bursts against enemies with lots of dodging and reaction dice, or laying down suppressive fire.
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Nov 17 2006, 04:29 AM
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#44
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
That doesn't mean it's not Do-Able. Just Impracticle. |
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Nov 17 2006, 06:41 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
They exist and apparently work fairly well. It doesn't make the weapon silent, or even quiet, but it makes it a lot less loud. http://www.surefire.com/pdfs/FA762M.pdf |
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Nov 17 2006, 06:48 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
It suppresses the sound enough to prevent hearing damage and being able to talk over the gunfire, not enough to make it effectively silent for stealth use. |
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Nov 17 2006, 11:42 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That is true for the majority of applications of firearm sound suppressors. Assault rifles, sporting rifles and sniper rifles are all "plagued" with high-supersonic bullets ripping through the air making a lot of noise. Such weapons generate large amounts of propellant gases that, even when exiting at a lower velocity after taking a round of the suppressor, are still very loud, which, combined with the mechanical noise of any semi- or fully automatic weapon cycling itself, makes for something not accurately described as "silent". A hundred meters away, the noise from a suppressed 7.62x51mm rifle (battle rifle/sporting rifle/light sniper rifle/GPMG) might peak at 105dB instead of 120dB for an unsuppressed weapon, while ten meters to the side the difference might be greater, about 120dB vs. 145dB. For assault rifles, remove a few dB from those figures. For handguns or SMGs, remove something like 10dB. The figures may vary by 10dB or more this way or that, but the point is that, as a rule, "silence" is not a reasonable goal when suppressing firearms. Misdirection often is. Suggested reading. |
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Nov 17 2006, 02:11 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,415 |
KZT, I looked over the link you have and thoses supressors are ment for small weapons like pistols and the like not LMG like the ones in question. No saying that we are trying to compare real world 2007 to fantasy RPG world 2070, its like comparing apples with a cartoon falling anvil for damage ability. But thats just the way I look at it.
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Nov 17 2006, 02:26 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Eh? The file kzt linked is even titled: "FA762M, FAST-ATTACH™ SOUND SUPPRESSOR, For use on 7.62-caliber machine guns". The suppressor in question is meant for machine guns like the M240, the M60 and others which are in the light machine gun - general purpose machine gun (what passes as MMG in SR) range. Here's a suppressed 12.7x99mm BMG Barrett M82, here a suppressed 7.62x51mm FN FAL battle rifle, and finally a suppressed SPAS 15.
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Nov 17 2006, 03:53 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Keep in mind that machine gun sound suppressors are designed for military engagements, not most SR-style engagements.
In a military engagement, commonly you've got upwards of twenty-five combatants to a side, and they are spread out over a good deal of territory, a city block or bigger. In SR-style engagements, you might have only four combatants on each side, and they're often all in the same room. So a heavy weapon sound suppressor is not going to hide your MG from your enemies in the same room. But it will help to conceal it from your enemies outside the window and fifty meters down the street while 49 other guys are simultaneously running, screaming, shooting, and throwing grenades. |
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