Is it just me, or are the stats for the Ingram White Night just a bit ridiculous? It is no more powerful than any of the Assault Rifles, costs more than most of them, and has doubled encompensated recoil? The Medium Machine Gun isn't much better, just adding a single point of armor piercing, taking out all of the features, but costs over twice as much. To me, this just seems really wrong. Has anyone else noticed this and/or tried to fix it?

Note, my troll tank uses the Medium Machine Gun, mostly for aesthetics. At least until he gets his hands on a Panther XXL

Well it does have a built in recoil of 5(6) thats enougth to use burst fire mode with out penalty. Even with its double recoil value.
The gun can have a 100 round belt loaded in which is perfect for prolonged full autofire.
Also as a heavy weapon I believe it has a longer range.

The medium machine gun? yeah that has problems, But you could still instail a rating 3 gas vent system, shock pads and a tri-pod for a recoil comp of 4(6).

But a Ingram White Knight firing in a narrow burst with EX-Explosive ammo would deal
10P AP -3.
You'd get two bursts per initiative pass. I'd say thats much better then the panther which is single shot and must use assault cannon rounds and thus can't benfit from custom ammo like EX-Explosive gell or stick and shock.

And when you add a gyro-mount harness, you can fire full auto bursts with no penalty, even if you are running.

If you like suppressive fire, anything with less than 60 shots is not your friend. Double recoil does not hurt if you don´t get to feel any. The medium machine gun will have its day when we get our vehicle equipment back - think advanced vehicular gyroscopes. Then you get an additional AP and loose features your car did not need due to weapons mount technology.

The question is now if you are willing to invest in another skill just to use heavy weapons.

Yeah, use a gyromount. Wont hurt the aesthetics either .

Gyromount my ass.

Since I always figured that LMGs were 5.56 firearms like the Minimi videos AE posted generally just tried to ignore the double uncompensated recoil where possible.

Pfffff. Not a Troll And look what he can do.

And a troll should have a WAY easier time doing that.

Even then, of course, that guy in the video is hardly winning any points for accuracy I'm sure, and I'd like to see him try and move at any kind of decent rate and do that.

The videos make me think I might introduce some sort of Bracing houserule, swapping reaction dice for recoil compensation.

Speaking of heavy weapons, what is the deal with the Aztechnology Striker, the disposable rocket launcher? It has an availability of 12, I think (don't have BBB with me atm), but no rocket has an availability of less than 16. So that means you can start with the launcher, but no ammo? Or does it come with a rockert, like an RPG? If so, what are the stats for the rocket?

And the reason I like the Panther XXL is that nothing short of a AV rocket is better at taking out armored vehicles, especially when the AV Assault Cannon round is revealed in Arsenal (assuming they do in fact bring it back, it was in Cannon Companion)

I would also like him to upgrade to a minigun at some point. (Hey, if the governor of Minnesota can use one, so can my huge ass troll) That will provide his suppressing fire capability.

Only problem is he has to decide which one to bring to a mission, as i imagine carrying a Combat Axe, Panther XXL, GE Vindicator, Gyro Stabilization, Ares Predator IV, Ruger Super Warhawk, and Heavy Armor might be a bit much, even for a troll with strength 13.

About Gyro Stabilization, can you use the same mount for two weapons, or would I have to buy two seperate mounts?

Edit: I don't intend to use both weapons at the same time

Oh, ok. Sorry, can't help you there.

In order to keep things simple, its easier to say the disposable launcher can fire one rocket of your choice but the launch makes it unusable. Which is why its unusable.

Its availibily is only 12F because its alot easier to smuggle then an actual rocket.

An LMG is the largest weapon that will fit on a vehicle (or drone) weapon mount. I think it's also the only belt-fed one. That in itself makes it pretty valuable.

Which is retarded beyond comprehension. The whole point of a combat vehicle is to move heavier guns faster while absorbing more fire than a foot soldier.

Ex-explosive is only dangerious if your not very skilled in the firearm your using. A critical glitch is required for a backfire and even then it only deals the base damage of the weapon.
Ex-Explosive is also cheeper then assault cannon which is what I was comparing it to.
Its price per shot not price per clip.
EX-Explosive is 10 credits a shot.

The ingram is (6DV -1) or (8DV -3) with EX explosive ammo. Thats one less then the rugar. Your going to get 2 shots per initiative pass while the rugar has one.
The added damage from autofire may not effect whether or not it can get through the armor but when you already score enougth hits the target still feels the extra damage.


With only a 1 hit difference, the Ingram will average far more damage over the course of a round then the rugar.

Is this REALLY a thread about the White Knight not being powerful enough? Did the OP really say "worst weapon in the game"? Are we playing the SAME game? Is this or is this not some elaborate joke designed to fry my brain?

Personally I wouldn't use the ingram. I'd go for the Aries Alpha.

The Ingram is good for enemies to the Players. As one of those laying down full auto fire could even make a troll tank dive for cover. Remember many of these weapons may be good on the battle field but not for shadowrunners.

Ivan the Ingrim has Burst Fire mode, I'm looking at the book right now as I type and post..

The stoner has the problem.

Actually it comes with a gas vent system so you can't instail another one.

I remember reading somewhere that integral accessories did not take up mounts, and that you could then put whatever you want on them. That the Alpha says its 2 points of internal recoil come from "chamber design" and the White Knight says "gas vent" seems like fluff to me. Either they can both be vented, or they can both not be vented.

Even if the Alpha can be vented and the Knight not, the Knight can still be Suppressed while still having enough RC for two bursts. Which is very important, at least in our games.

The Recoil Compensation is easy enough to provide using accessories though. You can get the Ares up to RC of 6 for only another 450, since it can take a gas-vent system, unlike the White Knight, as well as Shock Pads. With the grenade launcher and smartgun system built in, all you need to add is a Airburst Link and Sound Suppressor, and maybe an imaging scope if you don't have cyber eyes to take of that for you, you will have the best damned weapon in the game. Period. After looking at that, the White Knight just makes you think, "Why bother?"

With the question of why an LMG and not and AR with less recoil, besides the ammo...someone with SR4 rules-fu will have to clear this, but in SR3 Heavy Weapons did normal damage vs. vehicles. Anything under that, including ARs and SMGs, had their damage cut severely while attacking a vehicle.

That was one reason back in the day to carry a LMG vs. AR if you were going against something like that...but i dont recall the SR4 vehicle attack rule and i dont have book in front of me.

No mention in SR4 rules about heavy weapons being better against vehicles than anything else. The only requirement for damaging a vehicle is that the base DV + net hits must be greater than armor - AP.

There's also no reason why one weapon cannot just be plain outright better than another.

The LMG is a general issue battlefield weapon, and while it may not be available at the local Stuffer Shack™, it is fairly commonly distributed throughout the world.

The Alpha, on the other hand, is an elite, special forces-type weapon that has nowhere near the production run, and is probably in quite high demand wherever weapons are needed ... so pretty much anywhere.

Damn straight that most people would choose the Alpha if given the chance, but not always as they are really designed for different purpopses. Unfortunately, the Availability rules just don't reflect this aspect.

The big problem with the alpha is you need 2 skills, automatics and heavy weapons (for the grenade launcher).

But even bringing availability and cost into the equation, the Alpha still is preferable.

you don't NEED it. you can always default.

From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.

The Alpha is better, if you are using the automatics skill. If you are using the heavy weapons skill, the Ingram is a good choice for a weapon because of its extra recoil compensation - two points more than a tricked-out MMG can get. Plus, it is much less expensive. And it may not punch through armor like a Panther cannon, but it is actually better at certain roles, such as using bursts to take out two foes instead of one, firing wide bursts against enemies with lots of dodging and reaction dice, or laying down suppressive fire.

KZT, I looked over the link you have and thoses supressors are ment for small weapons like pistols and the like not LMG like the ones in question. No saying that we are trying to compare real world 2007 to fantasy RPG world 2070, its like comparing apples with a cartoon falling anvil for damage ability. But thats just the way I look at it.

Eh? The file kzt linked is even titled: "FA762M, FAST-ATTACH™ SOUND SUPPRESSOR, For use on 7.62-caliber machine guns". The suppressor in question is meant for machine guns like the M240, the M60 and others which are in the light machine gun - general purpose machine gun (what passes as MMG in SR) range. Here's a suppressed 12.7x99mm BMG Barrett M82, here a suppressed 7.62x51mm FN FAL battle rifle, and finally a suppressed SPAS 15.

Keep in mind that machine gun sound suppressors are designed for military engagements, not most SR-style engagements.

In a military engagement, commonly you've got upwards of twenty-five combatants to a side, and they are spread out over a good deal of territory, a city block or bigger. In SR-style engagements, you might have only four combatants on each side, and they're often all in the same room.

So a heavy weapon sound suppressor is not going to hide your MG from your enemies in the same room. But it will help to conceal it from your enemies outside the window and fifty meters down the street while 49 other guys are simultaneously running, screaming, shooting, and throwing grenades.