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IvanTank
Is it just me, or are the stats for the Ingram White Night just a bit ridiculous? It is no more powerful than any of the Assault Rifles, costs more than most of them, and has doubled encompensated recoil? The Medium Machine Gun isn't much better, just adding a single point of armor piercing, taking out all of the features, but costs over twice as much. To me, this just seems really wrong. Has anyone else noticed this and/or tried to fix it?

Note, my troll tank uses the Medium Machine Gun, mostly for aesthetics. At least until he gets his hands on a Panther XXL smile.gif
Jack Kain
Well it does have a built in recoil of 5(6) thats enougth to use burst fire mode with out penalty. Even with its double recoil value.
The gun can have a 100 round belt loaded in which is perfect for prolonged full autofire.
Also as a heavy weapon I believe it has a longer range.

The medium machine gun? yeah that has problems, But you could still instail a rating 3 gas vent system, shock pads and a tri-pod for a recoil comp of 4(6).

But a Ingram White Knight firing in a narrow burst with EX-Explosive ammo would deal
10P AP -3.
You'd get two bursts per initiative pass. I'd say thats much better then the panther which is single shot and must use assault cannon rounds and thus can't benfit from custom ammo like EX-Explosive gell or stick and shock.
Glyph
And when you add a gyro-mount harness, you can fire full auto bursts with no penalty, even if you are running.
Ryu
If you like suppressive fire, anything with less than 60 shots is not your friend. Double recoil does not hurt if you donīt get to feel any. The medium machine gun will have its day when we get our vehicle equipment back - think advanced vehicular gyroscopes. Then you get an additional AP and loose features your car did not need due to weapons mount technology.

The question is now if you are willing to invest in another skill just to use heavy weapons.
mintcar
Yeah, use a gyromount. Wont hurt the aesthetics either wink.gif.
Austere Emancipator
Gyromount my ass.
FlakJacket
Since I always figured that LMGs were 5.56 firearms like the Minimi videos AE posted generally just tried to ignore the double uncompensated recoil where possible.
Lindt
Pfffff. Not a Troll And look what he can do.
eidolon
And a troll should have a WAY easier time doing that.

Even then, of course, that guy in the video is hardly winning any points for accuracy I'm sure, and I'd like to see him try and move at any kind of decent rate and do that. smile.gif
IvanTank
QUOTE (Ryu)
If you like suppressive fire, anything with less than 60 shots is not your friend. Double recoil does not hurt if you donīt get to feel any. The medium machine gun will have its day when we get our vehicle equipment back - think advanced vehicular gyroscopes. Then you get an additional AP and loose features your car did not need due to weapons mount technology.

The question is now if you are willing to invest in another skill just to use heavy weapons.

Actually, I was choosing between LMG, MMG and HMG for my troll because i didn't want to invest in Automatics skill smile.gif. I already intended for him to use a grenade launcher and, once my fixer finds one, a Panther XXL smile.gif
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (IvanTank)
QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 16 2006, 03:49 AM)
If you like suppressive fire, anything with less than 60 shots is not your friend. Double recoil does not hurt if you donīt get to feel any. The medium machine gun will have its day when we get our vehicle equipment back - think advanced vehicular gyroscopes. Then you get an additional AP and loose features your car did not need due to weapons mount technology.

The question is now if you are willing to invest in another skill just to use heavy weapons.

Actually, I was choosing between LMG, MMG and HMG for my troll because i didn't want to invest in Automatics skill smile.gif. I already intended for him to use a grenade launcher and, once my fixer finds one, a Panther XXL smile.gif

Just remember just because the XXL has a RC 1, you don't get 2 shots. wink.gif
ThreeGee
The videos make me think I might introduce some sort of Bracing houserule, swapping reaction dice for recoil compensation.
IvanTank
Speaking of heavy weapons, what is the deal with the Aztechnology Striker, the disposable rocket launcher? It has an availability of 12, I think (don't have BBB with me atm), but no rocket has an availability of less than 16. So that means you can start with the launcher, but no ammo? Or does it come with a rockert, like an RPG? If so, what are the stats for the rocket?

And the reason I like the Panther XXL is that nothing short of a AV rocket is better at taking out armored vehicles, especially when the AV Assault Cannon round is revealed in Arsenal (assuming they do in fact bring it back, it was in Cannon Companion)

I would also like him to upgrade to a minigun at some point. (Hey, if the governor of Minnesota can use one, so can my huge ass troll) That will provide his suppressing fire capability.

Only problem is he has to decide which one to bring to a mission, as i imagine carrying a Combat Axe, Panther XXL, GE Vindicator, Gyro Stabilization, Ares Predator IV, Ruger Super Warhawk, and Heavy Armor might be a bit much, even for a troll with strength 13.

About Gyro Stabilization, can you use the same mount for two weapons, or would I have to buy two seperate mounts?

Edit: I don't intend to use both weapons at the same time smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Or does it come with a rockert, like an RPG?

The weapon most commonly referred to simply as "RPG", the Soviet RPG-7, is a reloadable launcher that can be used to fire a wide range of rockets. By "come with a rocket", you probably mean disposable anti-tank rocket weapons like the M72 LAW and the M136 AT4 -- and if the Striker is indeed disposable that means it does come with a rocket and the stats of that rocket should be built into the given range, damage, etc. (I don't have SR4.)
lorechaser
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Speaking of heavy weapons, what is the deal with the Aztechnology Striker, the disposable rocket launcher? It has an availability of 12, I think (don't have BBB with me atm), but no rocket has an availability of less than 16. So that means you can start with the launcher, but no ammo? Or does it come with a rockert, like an RPG? If so, what are the stats for the rocket?

Nothing to see here, move along.
IvanTank
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Or does it come with a rockert, like an RPG?

The weapon most commonly referred to simply as "RPG", the Soviet RPG-7, is a reloadable launcher that can be used to fire a wide range of rockets. By "come with a rocket", you probably mean disposable anti-tank rocket weapons like the M72 LAW and the M136 AT4 -- and if the Striker is indeed disposable that means it does come with a rocket and the stats of that rocket should be built into the given range, damage, etc. (I don't have SR4.)

The Striker is described as disposable, but damage is listed as "by rocket/missile". So my question is, is it reusable, meaning you need to buy rockets/missiles seperately, or is it disposable and you choose which rocket/missile you want when buying it?
Austere Emancipator
Oh, ok. Sorry, can't help you there.
Fortune
QUOTE (IvanTank)
... or is it disposable and you choose which rocket/missile you want when buying it?

That would be my guess. smile.gif
Jack Kain
In order to keep things simple, its easier to say the disposable launcher can fire one rocket of your choice but the launch makes it unusable. Which is why its unusable.

Its availibily is only 12F because its alot easier to smuggle then an actual rocket.
IvanTank
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
But a Ingram White Knight firing in a narrow burst with EX-Explosive ammo would deal
10P AP -3.
You'd get two bursts per initiative pass. I'd say thats much better then the panther which is single shot and must use assault cannon rounds and thus can't benfit from custom ammo like EX-Explosive gell or stick and shock.

Isn't explosive ammunition rather unstable, even when fired from a semi-auto, or even single shot, pistol? Firing it from a Light Machine Gun, I imagine, would make it even more so, do to heat build up, etc.

Also, EX ammo is on the pricy end. A belt of the stuff is about 1,000 nuyen, (don't have BBB on me atm).

What I think is sad is that a Ruger Super Warhawk (6DV -2AP) with EX ammo (8DV -4AP) is one of the best anti-armored weapon you can start the game with, since it can damage a vehicle with an armor rating up to 12 + hits (remember that added damage from autofire does not affect whether or not it can get through the armor)

Shotguns with slugs and sniper rifles might be better (don't have BBB on me).
2bit
An LMG is the largest weapon that will fit on a vehicle (or drone) weapon mount. I think it's also the only belt-fed one. That in itself makes it pretty valuable.
Zen Shooter01
Which is retarded beyond comprehension. The whole point of a combat vehicle is to move heavier guns faster while absorbing more fire than a foot soldier.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Firing it from a Light Machine Gun, I imagine, would make it even more so, do to heat build up, etc.

Shadowrun (EX-)Explosive ammunition explodes because you critically glitch a roll, not because of heat or shock or anything like that. If you aren't going to glitch your attacks with the LMG more often than with a handgun, it won't get any more ammo malfunctions.
Jack Kain
Ex-explosive is only dangerious if your not very skilled in the firearm your using. A critical glitch is required for a backfire and even then it only deals the base damage of the weapon.
Ex-Explosive is also cheeper then assault cannon which is what I was comparing it to.
Its price per shot not price per clip.
EX-Explosive is 10 credits a shot.

The ingram is (6DV -1) or (8DV -3) with EX explosive ammo. Thats one less then the rugar. Your going to get 2 shots per initiative pass while the rugar has one.
The added damage from autofire may not effect whether or not it can get through the armor but when you already score enougth hits the target still feels the extra damage.


With only a 1 hit difference, the Ingram will average far more damage over the course of a round then the rugar.
Narmio
Is this REALLY a thread about the White Knight not being powerful enough? Did the OP really say "worst weapon in the game"? Are we playing the SAME game? Is this or is this not some elaborate joke designed to fry my brain?
IvanTank
QUOTE (Narmio)
Is this REALLY a thread about the White Knight not being powerful enough? Did the OP really say "worst weapon in the game"? Are we playing the SAME game? Is this or is this not some elaborate joke designed to fry my brain?

Compare the White Knight with the Ares Alpha, and tell me, exactly what advantage does the White Knight have, other than being able to be belt fed? A belt does not make up for the double recoil and removal of semi-auto and burst-fire capabilities.
Jack Kain
Personally I wouldn't use the ingram. I'd go for the Aries Alpha.

The Ingram is good for enemies to the Players. As one of those laying down full auto fire could even make a troll tank dive for cover. Remember many of these weapons may be good on the battle field but not for shadowrunners.

Ivan the Ingrim has Burst Fire mode, I'm looking at the book right now as I type and post..

The stoner has the problem.
Narmio
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 09:50 PM)
QUOTE (Narmio @ Nov 16 2006, 09:41 PM)
Is this REALLY a thread about the White Knight not being powerful enough?  Did the OP really say "worst weapon in the game"?  Are we playing the SAME game?  Is this or is this not some elaborate joke designed to fry my brain?

Compare the White Knight with the Ares Alpha, and tell me, exactly what advantage does the White Knight have, other than being able to be belt fed? A belt does not make up for the double recoil and removal of semi-auto and burst-fire capabilities.

Um... I guess I have to do this, because it's possible you haven't read this bit. The answer is...

Five points of internal recoil compensation, as opposed to two! At minimum you'll be firing two bursts a round with both weapons (unmodified), and that means the White Knight's second burst has three extra dice. Every time. For only 300Y. And you can still put an external gas vent on both of them.

Three points of internal recoil compensation is FREAKING HUGE. In fact, when you can get it to 8(9) RC for only 400Y, double uncompensated recoil isn't a problem. And it's a damn machine gun, the removal of semi-auto mode is hardly something to worry about. Oh, and it DOES have BF capability.

The first time I read the SR4 weapon rules, the White Knight wowed me as the obvious heavy weapon of choice for those who needed one. It is an AWESOME gun. The Stoner-Ares M202 is bollocks in comparison.
Jack Kain
Actually it comes with a gas vent system so you can't instail another one.
Jaid
QUOTE (Narmio @ Nov 16 2006, 10:12 PM)
And you can still put an external gas vent on both of them. 

Three points of internal recoil compensation is FREAKING HUGE.  In fact, when you can get it to 8(9) RC for only 400Y, double uncompensated recoil isn't a problem.  And it's a damn machine gun, the removal of semi-auto mode is hardly something to worry about.  Oh, and it DOES have BF capability.

actually, you explicitly cannot upgrade the gas vent system.

that does still leave bipods, tripods, and gyro-mounts. and tracer rounds too, i suppose, which can also cancel recoil.

[edit] blast, beaten to the punch! [/edit]
Narmio
I remember reading somewhere that integral accessories did not take up mounts, and that you could then put whatever you want on them. That the Alpha says its 2 points of internal recoil come from "chamber design" and the White Knight says "gas vent" seems like fluff to me. Either they can both be vented, or they can both not be vented.

Even if the Alpha can be vented and the Knight not, the Knight can still be Suppressed while still having enough RC for two bursts. Which is very important, at least in our games.
IvanTank
The Recoil Compensation is easy enough to provide using accessories though. You can get the Ares up to RC of 6 for only another 450, since it can take a gas-vent system, unlike the White Knight, as well as Shock Pads. With the grenade launcher and smartgun system built in, all you need to add is a Airburst Link and Sound Suppressor, and maybe an imaging scope if you don't have cyber eyes to take of that for you, you will have the best damned weapon in the game. Period. After looking at that, the White Knight just makes you think, "Why bother?"
IvanTank
QUOTE (Narmio @ Nov 16 2006, 10:25 PM)
I remember reading somewhere that integral accessories did not take up mounts, and that you could then put whatever you want on them.  That the Alpha says its 2 points of internal recoil come from "chamber design" and the White Knight says "gas vent" seems like fluff to me.  Either they can both be vented, or they can both not be vented.

Even if the Alpha can be vented and the Knight not, the Knight can still be Suppressed while still having enough RC for two bursts.  Which is very important, at least in our games.

From the BBB, on the White Knight:

"It's equipped with ... an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded."

Thus, if you want more RC with the white knight, you need a bipod/tripod or a gyroscope.

Also from BBB, on gas-vent systems:

"Weapons already equipped with a built-in gas-vent system cannot be equipped with an additional gas-vent system."
ElFenrir
With the question of why an LMG and not and AR with less recoil, besides the ammo...someone with SR4 rules-fu will have to clear this, but in SR3 Heavy Weapons did normal damage vs. vehicles. Anything under that, including ARs and SMGs, had their damage cut severely while attacking a vehicle.

That was one reason back in the day to carry a LMG vs. AR if you were going against something like that...but i dont recall the SR4 vehicle attack rule and i dont have book in front of me.
IvanTank
No mention in SR4 rules about heavy weapons being better against vehicles than anything else. The only requirement for damaging a vehicle is that the base DV + net hits must be greater than armor - AP.
Fortune
There's also no reason why one weapon cannot just be plain outright better than another.

The LMG is a general issue battlefield weapon, and while it may not be available at the local Stuffer Shack™, it is fairly commonly distributed throughout the world.

The Alpha, on the other hand, is an elite, special forces-type weapon that has nowhere near the production run, and is probably in quite high demand wherever weapons are needed ... so pretty much anywhere.

Damn straight that most people would choose the Alpha if given the chance, but not always as they are really designed for different purpopses. Unfortunately, the Availability rules just don't reflect this aspect.
IvanTank
The big problem with the alpha is you need 2 skills, automatics and heavy weapons (for the grenade launcher).

But even bringing availability and cost into the equation, the Alpha still is preferable.
Fix-it
you don't NEED it. you can always default.
Fortune
QUOTE (IvanTank)
The big problem with the alpha is you need 2 skills, automatics and heavy weapons (for the grenade launcher).

And that would be one of the balancing factors that would need to be considered when choosing the weapon. wink.gif
Narmio
QUOTE (IvanTank)
QUOTE (Narmio @ Nov 16 2006, 10:25 PM)
I remember reading somewhere that integral accessories did not take up mounts, and that you could then put whatever you want on them.  That the Alpha says its 2 points of internal recoil come from "chamber design" and the White Knight says "gas vent" seems like fluff to me.  Either they can both be vented, or they can both not be vented.

Even if the Alpha can be vented and the Knight not, the Knight can still be Suppressed while still having enough RC for two bursts.  Which is very important, at least in our games.

From the BBB, on the White Knight:

"It's equipped with ... an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded."

Thus, if you want more RC with the white knight, you need a bipod/tripod or a gyroscope.

Also from BBB, on gas-vent systems:

"Weapons already equipped with a built-in gas-vent system cannot be equipped with an additional gas-vent system."

OK, cool. Mea culpa, I haven't actually played in six months or so, I shouldn't have jumped in with the rules quotes smile.gif.

However, you can still Suppress a White Knight and get your 5(6) RC without needing to stand still or use a gyromount. That said, the Alpha has an underbarrel grenade launcher instead. So you can make your own conclusions abotu which is the better.


But we're *still* comparing two of the best weapons in the book.
IvanTank
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (IvanTank)
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.

Even if you could silence it. the nose from the bullets blowing apart the wall would be a dead give away.
Glyph
The Alpha is better, if you are using the automatics skill. If you are using the heavy weapons skill, the Ingram is a good choice for a weapon because of its extra recoil compensation - two points more than a tricked-out MMG can get. Plus, it is much less expensive. And it may not punch through armor like a Panther cannon, but it is actually better at certain roles, such as using bursts to take out two foes instead of one, firing wide bursts against enemies with lots of dodging and reaction dice, or laying down suppressive fire.
Fix-it
QUOTE
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.


That doesn't mean it's not Do-Able.

Just Impracticle.
kzt
QUOTE (IvanTank)
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no. The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.

They exist and apparently work fairly well. It doesn't make the weapon silent, or even quiet, but it makes it a lot less loud.

http://www.surefire.com/pdfs/FA762M.pdf
IvanTank
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 11:22 PM)
From my understading of guns, trying to get a sound suppressor on any sort of heavy weapon is a big no-no.  The chamber-feed system from a M249 would generate a lot of noise, not just the barrel.

They exist and apparently work fairly well. It doesn't make the weapon silent, or even quiet, but it makes it a lot less loud.

http://www.surefire.com/pdfs/FA762M.pdf

It suppresses the sound enough to prevent hearing damage and being able to talk over the gunfire, not enough to make it effectively silent for stealth use.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (IvanTank)
It suppresses the sound enough to prevent hearing damage and being able to talk over the gunfire, not enough to make it effectively silent for stealth use.

That is true for the majority of applications of firearm sound suppressors. Assault rifles, sporting rifles and sniper rifles are all "plagued" with high-supersonic bullets ripping through the air making a lot of noise. Such weapons generate large amounts of propellant gases that, even when exiting at a lower velocity after taking a round of the suppressor, are still very loud, which, combined with the mechanical noise of any semi- or fully automatic weapon cycling itself, makes for something not accurately described as "silent".

A hundred meters away, the noise from a suppressed 7.62x51mm rifle (battle rifle/sporting rifle/light sniper rifle/GPMG) might peak at 105dB instead of 120dB for an unsuppressed weapon, while ten meters to the side the difference might be greater, about 120dB vs. 145dB. For assault rifles, remove a few dB from those figures. For handguns or SMGs, remove something like 10dB. The figures may vary by 10dB or more this way or that, but the point is that, as a rule, "silence" is not a reasonable goal when suppressing firearms. Misdirection often is.

Suggested reading.
Balcon13
KZT, I looked over the link you have and thoses supressors are ment for small weapons like pistols and the like not LMG like the ones in question. No saying that we are trying to compare real world 2007 to fantasy RPG world 2070, its like comparing apples with a cartoon falling anvil for damage ability. But thats just the way I look at it.
Austere Emancipator
Eh? The file kzt linked is even titled: "FA762M, FAST-ATTACH™ SOUND SUPPRESSOR, For use on 7.62-caliber machine guns". The suppressor in question is meant for machine guns like the M240, the M60 and others which are in the light machine gun - general purpose machine gun (what passes as MMG in SR) range. Here's a suppressed 12.7x99mm BMG Barrett M82, here a suppressed 7.62x51mm FN FAL battle rifle, and finally a suppressed SPAS 15.
Zen Shooter01
Keep in mind that machine gun sound suppressors are designed for military engagements, not most SR-style engagements.

In a military engagement, commonly you've got upwards of twenty-five combatants to a side, and they are spread out over a good deal of territory, a city block or bigger. In SR-style engagements, you might have only four combatants on each side, and they're often all in the same room.

So a heavy weapon sound suppressor is not going to hide your MG from your enemies in the same room. But it will help to conceal it from your enemies outside the window and fifty meters down the street while 49 other guys are simultaneously running, screaming, shooting, and throwing grenades.
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