Fortune
Nov 17 2006, 03:58 PM
Somewhere around the net is that weird pic of a howitzer-type weapon with a big ass suppressor attached. Anyone know where it is?
Austere Emancipator
Nov 17 2006, 04:24 PM
This one.I outsmarted myself by searching for "m109 suppressor". I should have known I'd best find it with "tank silencer".
Fortune
Nov 17 2006, 04:29 PM
That's the one ... now
that's what I call a silencer.
I did a quick search earlier, but only used howitzer silencer, which is probably why I didn't find it. D'oh.
Butterblume
Nov 17 2006, 04:50 PM
I wonder what Sigmund Freud would have to say about that.
lorechaser
Nov 17 2006, 05:24 PM
The other less obvious difference is that the Ares Alpha is still an assault rifle. It's a nice one, and will command respect. But it's not a freakin' machine gun.
That will have both upsides (I'd give a bonus to intimidate and the like) and downsides (High Threat is much more likely when the LMG comes out). But it's another aspect.
Personally, I usually go with the Alpha, because you can get by with 6 bp in Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers) and roll 3 dice + agility just fine to place a grenade near someone. Very rarely are you required to put a grenade in a precise spot. If you use automatics as your main skill, you can also carry a machine pistol in a quick draw holster, or pick up and use most any SMGs. If you focus on Heavy Weapons, and you lose your White Knight, good luck finding a replacement on the sec guards.
kzt
Nov 17 2006, 06:04 PM
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
Keep in mind that machine gun sound suppressors are designed for military engagements, not most SR-style engagements.
|
Surefire was pushing assault rifle silencers for police use inside buildings, mostly as it prevents the permanent hearing loss that comes with shooting when you don't have ear protection and also allows you to talk amongst each other without the volume level you need when your ear pro has to handle 5.56 in a phone booth.
It's not a movie silencers, which generally don't exist.
Jaid
Nov 17 2006, 06:09 PM
he didn't say assault rifle silencers, he said machine gun silencers.
most police forces that i have heard of don't use machine guns. well, at least not the RL ones (anime police forces probably use them occasionally, but then again anime police forces have also been known to use Giant Fighting Seizure Robots, with heavy weaponry that can level a small building)
lorechaser
Nov 17 2006, 06:21 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
(anime police forces probably use them occasionally, but then again anime police forces have also been known to use Giant Fighting Seizure Robots, with heavy weaponry that can level a small building) |
They also seem to employ lesbian catgirls in school girl outfits, or just leather straps, a lot.
Come to think of it, it's a lot like Shadowrun.
MYST1C
Nov 17 2006, 06:33 PM
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
This one. I outsmarted myself by searching for "m109 suppressor". I should have known I'd best find it with "tank silencer". |
To add some info:
That howitzer and silencer belong to the German Heer (army).
That particular artillery shooting range is near a city so the silencer is used to go easy on the citizens' ears.
Triggerz
Nov 17 2006, 06:42 PM
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Nov 17 2006, 11:50 AM) |
I wonder what Sigmund Freud would have to say about that.
|
I think he'd just point and laugh. (But then, psychology is one of the few things I've never really studied, so I don't know.
)
Glyph
Nov 18 2006, 04:02 AM
He'd say:
"Sometimes a tank silencer is just a tank silencer."
Mistwalker
Nov 19 2006, 05:45 PM
Some seem to think that you can have a gas-vent 3 and a sound suppressor on the Ares Alpha. You can't.
Both are barrel mounted accessories, so, only one can be on at a time.
Konsaki
Nov 19 2006, 06:00 PM
And once you install a gas vent system, which takes an armorer skill check, it cant be removed from the weapon.
Mistwalker
Nov 19 2006, 06:11 PM
Oh, I would allow it to be removed, with another armorer's check (or monofilament whip check and a new shorter barrel version). But it would not be a quick and easy change.
Fortune
Nov 19 2006, 10:11 PM
QUOTE (Konsaki) |
And once you install a gas vent system, which takes an armorer skill check, it cant be removed from the weapon. |
But you could simply replace the whole barrel.
Lindt
Nov 20 2006, 06:00 AM
But that would make sense! Blasphamer!
Konsaki
Nov 20 2006, 06:09 AM
QUOTE (Fortune) |
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Nov 20 2006, 05:00 AM) | And once you install a gas vent system, which takes an armorer skill check, it cant be removed from the weapon. |
But you could simply replace the whole barrel. |
Hmm... Sometimes gun parts are married to the gun as a whole and to replace one part, expecially the barrel, would reduce the overall effectiveness of the gun. (I.E. gun jams more often, the accuracy of the gun is thrown off or power is not applied properly to the projectile due to a flaw in the new mating)
Now when dealing with machineguns though, most are made with the idea that the user will have to change out the barrel every 200 shots or so due to heat bending the barrel. In this situation, the argument above doesnt work as well, but on rifles or assault rifles, it holds more water.
Fortune
Nov 20 2006, 06:10 AM
Can you give me some actual examples of guns that are incapable of having their barrels removed or swapped out?
Konsaki
Nov 20 2006, 06:16 AM
Not really, because guns made now a days aren't hand made to work like that, but once they are thrown together and tested out, you might have a set of parts that work together just right. If you swap one out, you might have a totally different feel to your gun afterwards.
I know the M16A2 is designed with changable parts, but I've use some really crappy rifles that were obviously thrown together with spare parts. Course I've had some good rifles too that were the same, so it's sorta a crap shoot once you start changing parts.
Glyph
Nov 20 2006, 08:03 AM
Microtronic tools and other future-tech would make calibrating new gun parts easier, although the armorer can still get a bad roll and wind up doing a barrel replacement that gives you a penalty.
On a tangental note, I would think that most runners would change out the barrels of their guns on a regular basis, either that or dispose of them. A gun's ballistics are a record of every crime committed with that weapon (and that might include the Azzie BTL-smuggler gunning down four LoneStar officers before his AK-97 wound up getting picked out of the local fixer's bargain bin by a character).
Narmio
Nov 20 2006, 10:06 AM
QUOTE (Konsaki) |
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 20 2006, 07:11 AM) | QUOTE (Konsaki @ Nov 20 2006, 05:00 AM) | And once you install a gas vent system, which takes an armorer skill check, it cant be removed from the weapon. |
But you could simply replace the whole barrel. |
Hmm... Sometimes gun parts are married to the gun as a whole and to replace one part, expecially the barrel, would reduce the overall effectiveness of the gun. (I.E. gun jams more often, the accuracy of the gun is thrown off or power is not applied properly to the projectile due to a flaw in the new mating)
|
Isn't this what the GM-invented armourer check (a somewhat harder one) to remove it is for?
The check can't be harder than making a rifle from scratch yourself, and while (thank god) firearms design hasn't made it to SR4, players have been able to do that with the tech skills before.
Ryu
Nov 20 2006, 01:16 PM
One would indeed assume thats what the armourer test covers. Disassemly and assembly of rather simple parts should come free, this is not Rolemaster after all.
Concerning the advantage of light machine guns vs. assault rifles, a belt-fed weapon would have been real handy in our run yesterday. Sometimes you donīt have time to change the clip.
KarmaInferno
Nov 20 2006, 02:35 PM
So carry more guns!
=)
-np
Austere Emancipator
Nov 20 2006, 02:42 PM
On a firearm clearly intended for military use, given an average Armorer skill, the most basic of tools, and a range for test firing, the task of removing, replacing and adjusting the barrel should be relatively easy. For a weapon like the Ares Alpha, it would not be surprising to have modification kits available on the market such as a barrel without the gas vent on (assuming, as the rules apparently do, that the gas vent is an integral part of the barrel and can't be removed).
Ben
Nov 20 2006, 05:25 PM
the Ares has a "special chamber design", not an integral gas-vent (the weapons with an integral gas-vent are, for example, the ingram smartgun x, the fn har, and the white knight)
so you can put a gas-vent 3 on an Ares Alpha and get 5 points of RC (or put a sound suppressor and stay with your basic 2 RC)
Austere Emancipator
Nov 20 2006, 06:36 PM
Sorry.
What I said above should apply to the FN HAR, while the White Knight would have a quick-change barrel anyway.
lorechaser
Nov 20 2006, 08:19 PM
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Nov 20 2006, 09:35 AM) |
So carry more guns!
=)
-np |
Ain't that the truth?
There's a reason they invented quick draw holsters that hold machine pistols, and hidden arm slides that hold Predators.
And that's without even getting in to the gloriousness that is the Adept Quick-Draw power.
GM: "What? You can't drop your Smartgun and draw an Alpha?!"
Me: "Yes, yes I can."
GM: *sighs* "I hate you."
Taking your inspiration from the Matrix lobby scene, you should have a gun in each hand, an assault rifle slung across your back, two machine pistols in shoulder holsters, two pistols on your hip, a gun in your waistband, and possibly a shotgun in your pants.
If your GM is nice, you can have 2 predators in hidden arm slides as well.
Ambidexterity: The best 5 bp you'll ever spend.
Fortune
Nov 20 2006, 09:07 PM
QUOTE (lorechaser) |
Taking your inspiration from the Matrix lobby scene, you should have a gun in each hand, an assault rifle slung across your back, two machine pistols in shoulder holsters, two pistols on your hip, a gun in your waistband, and possibly a shotgun in your pants. If your GM is nice, you can have 2 predators in hidden arm slides as well. |
Only
one pistol in your waistband? Slack!
lorechaser
Nov 20 2006, 10:42 PM
Well, my character actually has slightly more than that, but I didn't want to go too overboard....
mfb
Nov 20 2006, 11:21 PM
and here i thought you were just happy to see me!
Glyph
Nov 21 2006, 03:21 AM
Just remember to turn the wireless off on
some of your smartlinks, or an enemy hacker can really ruin your day.
GM: "Your shotgun goes off... prematurely."
OneTrikPony
Nov 21 2006, 04:29 AM
QUOTE (Konsaki) |
Now when dealing with machineguns though, most are made with the idea that the user will have to change out the barrel every 200 shots or so due to heat bending the barrel. In this situation, the argument above doesnt work as well, but on rifles or assault rifles, it holds more water. |
I think it's slightly more than 200 shots or so
have you seen this
youtube linkIt looks like the guy's having fun for the first 300 rnds. I wouldn't want to be him the next morning.
mfb
Nov 21 2006, 06:31 AM
no, it's about 200 shots, if only to let the barrel cool. you can fire more--usually, a lot more--before you start actually running into problems, but exactly how much more is an unknown quantity. you can be fairly sure that you won't run into those problems before 200 shots.
it's kinda like the "best by" date on food. the day after that, the food's probably still good--but there's no guarantee.
OneTrikPony
Nov 21 2006, 06:58 AM
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 21 2006, 01:31 AM) |
no, it's about 200 shots, if only to let the barrel cool. you can fire more--usually, a lot more--before you start actually running into problems, but exactly how much more is an unknown quantity. you can be fairly sure that you won't run into those problems before 200 shots.
it's kinda like the "best by" date on food. the day after that, the food's probably still good--but there's no guarantee. |
did you not see the youtube movie? that guy had the trigger down for minute, forty-five seconds. Is there something I don't understand?
EDIT: The guy in the clip said:
QUOTE |
US Ordinance has hardened the bbl so they can get 15,000 round through a bbl before it needs to be changed |
Austere Emancipator
Nov 21 2006, 07:41 AM
This is what the US Army says about machine gun barrel changes in combat conditions:
-Sustained Fire: 100 rounds per minute, barrel change every 10 minutes
-Rapid Fire: 200 rounds per minute, barrel change every 2 minutes
-Cyclic Fire: 450-850rpm (depending on weapon), barrel change every minute
These are the same at least for crew served M249, M60 and M240 machine guns. It's pretty obvious that for cyclic fire it would be better for the barrel to be changed more than once per minute -- the field manuals don't say much about it, perhaps because a crew forced to fire cyclically won't care so much about barrel life but and the only real consideration becomes barrel blow-out.
In an earlier demonstration they did the same thing with an M60E4, but the barrel blew out at about 800 rounds. "15,000 rounds through a barrel before it needs to be changed" doesn't mean firing all that within a few hours, probably not even one day. What it means is that, with regular maintenance and firing it within normal parameters, a barrel will take, on average, 15,000 rounds through it before it is considered worn out.
In training, you'll want to change the barrel much more often than in combat conditions. The more you fire out of the same barrel, the faster they'll wear out. I would expect the barrel life of an M60E4 fired "rapidly" (ie. constant 100 rounds per minute) to be a few thousand.
mfb
Nov 24 2006, 01:37 AM
QUOTE (OneTrikPony) |
did you not see the youtube movie? that guy had the trigger down for minute, forty-five seconds. Is there something I don't understand? |
it's a matter of safe/economical practices, and possibly a misunderstanding about what it means to change a barrel. yeah, you can pour 15,000 rounds through one barrel without changing it--but you probably wouldn't want to do so more than once with the same barrel, since when you're done, i'd imagine the barrel is substantially weakened and unsafe to use again.
when you change out a barrel, you generally don't throw it away or even do any work on it. with the M249, we just swapped out two barrels, putting the one we'd just used on the parts bag to cool until it was time to swap it back in. doing this every 200 rounds means that your barrel will last for a good, long time. firing more than 200 rounds through one barrel will decrease the lifespan of the barrel--instead of, say, five years, it will only last one or two.
military practices tend to heavily favor extending the life of the equipment and minimizing the possiblity of malfunction. if you're constantly pushing the envelope with your equipment's tolerances, you're eventually going to tear the envelope. better to change out barrels to cool off long, long before you start doing damage to them. that way, you have to buy barrels less often, and don't have to worry as much about your barrels malfunctioning.
SL James
Nov 24 2006, 03:56 AM
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 23 2006, 07:37 PM) |
that way, you have to buy barrels less often, and don't have to worry as much about your barrels malfunctioning. |
Well, to be fair you'd probably have been killed by North Korean arty or WMDs long before you reached your SAW.
Had you lucked out, yeah, facing a million soldiers pouring across the DMZ is not a time when you'd want your barrel malfunctioning.
mfb
Nov 24 2006, 03:57 AM
hey! i can get my mask on inside ten seconds, as long as i've got advance warning. that's only five seconds too long to save my life!
SL James
Nov 24 2006, 04:16 AM
But, yeah, someone who saw a clip on YouTube trying to berate a former SAW gunner on the proper use of a M249 is one of those rare bits of comedy gold you can only find on the Internet.
krayola red
Nov 24 2006, 06:14 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
QUOTE (OneTrikPony) | did you not see the youtube movie? that guy had the trigger down for minute, forty-five seconds. Is there something I don't understand? |
it's a matter of safe/economical practices, and possibly a misunderstanding about what it means to change a barrel. yeah, you can pour 15,000 rounds through one barrel without changing it--but you probably wouldn't want to do so more than once with the same barrel, since when you're done, i'd imagine the barrel is substantially weakened and unsafe to use again.
when you change out a barrel, you generally don't throw it away or even do any work on it. with the M249, we just swapped out two barrels, putting the one we'd just used on the parts bag to cool until it was time to swap it back in. doing this every 200 rounds means that your barrel will last for a good, long time. firing more than 200 rounds through one barrel will decrease the lifespan of the barrel--instead of, say, five years, it will only last one or two.
military practices tend to heavily favor extending the life of the equipment and minimizing the possiblity of malfunction. if you're constantly pushing the envelope with your equipment's tolerances, you're eventually going to tear the envelope. better to change out barrels to cool off long, long before you start doing damage to them. that way, you have to buy barrels less often, and don't have to worry as much about your barrels malfunctioning.
|
How do you know when a barrel needs to be dumped? Do you just discard it after a certain amount of time or can you tell that a barrel's prone to giving out before it actually does? Or c) none of the above?
mfb
Nov 24 2006, 06:16 AM
that's up to the unit armorer. having never been trained for that position, i couldn't tell you. i'd imagine there are tests that tell you exactly how much wear has been inflicted on the barrel, possibly by measuring the depth of the rifling (like you measure wear on your tires by checking the depth of the tread). but that's just speculation.
lorechaser
Nov 24 2006, 03:48 PM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
Just remember to turn the wireless off on some of your smartlinks, or an enemy hacker can really ruin your day.
GM: "Your shotgun goes off... prematurely." |
Skinlinks all the way.
I'm a hard-core SR3 throw back in that department. Wireless is for the crazies. I hardwire my stuff, and hope for the best.
lorechaser
Nov 24 2006, 03:49 PM
QUOTE (SL James) |
But, yeah, someone who saw a clip on YouTube trying to berate a former SAW gunner on the proper use of a M249 is one of those rare bits of comedy gold you can only find on the Internet. |
Hey, we coulda used the SR ruleset to berate - that would have been even better!
"In my copy of the BBB, it doesn't even mention barrel swapping. I don't think you really know how to play the game!"
Ryu
Nov 24 2006, 05:53 PM
Lorechaser, it ainīt fun to make fun of their inabilities. Let them discuss their petty real-life experience while we DO IT THE RIGHT AND ONLY WAY, BY THE BOOK.
Iīd still be interested to know how the testing is done. Maybe measuring circumference and straightness (? not curved) is sufficient to judge damage done.
Austere Emancipator
Nov 24 2006, 06:20 PM
Rifling, as mfb said, is pretty crucial. Erosion and build-up of metal and/or fowling would be spotted on a closer look at the inside of the barrel. As always, Raygun will doubtless know all about that stuff.
Minor stretching and bending can result from normal use, but I would assume that rifling wearing out is a more common reason for militaries replacing barrels. Serious curving or other obvious changes to the proportions of the barrel shouldn't happen unless you constantly do something stupid with the weapon -- like, you know, firing 800 rounds cyclically through it.
Keep in mind that "worn out" is quite different for a military general purpose machine gun and, say, a long distance competition shooter's custom rifle. Reduced accuracy might cause the barrel of the latter to be replaced at a point where the former would still be considered in its prime.
lorechaser
Nov 24 2006, 06:35 PM
So, what exactly is "cyclical" firing?
Does that simply refer to a constant rate of fire, or is it something like fire, cool, fire, cool?
I know I could go to Wiki, but I prefer the answers you guys give....
Austere Emancipator
Nov 24 2006, 07:07 PM
Cyclic (firing) means without any interruptions, such as reloading, fixing jams or indeed for cooling down, at the rate at which the action of the weapon cycles itself.
Raygun
Nov 24 2006, 08:28 PM
QUOTE (krayola red @ Nov 24 2006, 06:14 AM) |
How do you know when a barrel needs to be dumped? Do you just discard it after a certain amount of time or can you tell that a barrel's prone to giving out before it actually does? Or c) none of the above? |
Pretty much what mfb said. Weapons are routinely passed through a unit armorer who has access to the tooling and gauges necessary to determine the condition of the weapon and replaces parts as necessary. The armorer also keeps a log of each weapon by serial number to give him an idea of how many times the weapon has been serviced, a rough idea of how many rounds the weapon has fired, and when certain parts should be checked or replaced.
The two most useful tools in terms of determining the condition of a barrel are what are called a headspace gauge and a bore scope.
A headspace gauge is a chuck of steel shaped like a cartridge case without the neck or bullet in place. The gauge is precision-machined to a ten thousandth of an inch in order to measure the distance between the shoulder of the chamber and the bolt face. When a barrel wears (through erosion and mechnical wear), this distance increases. It can increase to a point that when fired, recoil will cause the case to back out of the chamber and the bolt face will be too far back to stop it before the case ruptures, in best case causing a bad jam, in worst case destroying the barrel. The headspace test usually fails before the actual rifling is worn beyond a serviceable point.
A bore scope (like a non-flexible endoscope) allows the armorer to inspect the rifling from throat to muzzle, but they usually don't take the time to do that. If they see an odd spot with the naked eye, they'll use the bore scope to inspect that spot. Target areas are the throat of the bore, and the port where propellant gases are tapped from the barrel and into the weapon's operating system.
Another tool they sometimes use is a barrel comparitor, basically a device like a manual lathe that the barrel is inserted into, allowing it to rotate on its axis, and a gauge that is run along its outside in order to check for any warpage. Barrels can warp when they're run up to really high temperatures and then cooled very quickly (say, dunked in water, dropped in snow, or, in the interest of field-expediency, even pissed on).
krayola red
Nov 24 2006, 08:38 PM
Thanks, that was very informative.