 Light Machine Gun?, Worst weapon in the game? |
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 Nov 20 2006, 06:36 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Sorry.
What I said above should apply to the FN HAR, while the White Knight would have a quick-change barrel anyway. |
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Nov 20 2006, 08:19 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Ain't that the truth? There's a reason they invented quick draw holsters that hold machine pistols, and hidden arm slides that hold Predators. And that's without even getting in to the gloriousness that is the Adept Quick-Draw power. GM: "What? You can't drop your Smartgun and draw an Alpha?!" Me: "Yes, yes I can." GM: *sighs* "I hate you." Taking your inspiration from the Matrix lobby scene, you should have a gun in each hand, an assault rifle slung across your back, two machine pistols in shoulder holsters, two pistols on your hip, a gun in your waistband, and possibly a shotgun in your pants. ;) If your GM is nice, you can have 2 predators in hidden arm slides as well. Ambidexterity: The best 5 bp you'll ever spend. |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:07 PM
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#78
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Only one pistol in your waistband? Slack! :newbie: |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:42 PM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Well, my character actually has slightly more than that, but I didn't want to go too overboard....
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Nov 20 2006, 11:21 PM
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#80
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and here i thought you were just happy to see me!
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Nov 21 2006, 03:21 AM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Just remember to turn the wireless off on some of your smartlinks, or an enemy hacker can really ruin your day.
GM: "Your shotgun goes off... prematurely." :oops: |
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Nov 21 2006, 04:29 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
I think it's slightly more than 200 shots or so have you seen this youtube link It looks like the guy's having fun for the first 300 rnds. I wouldn't want to be him the next morning. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:31 AM
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#83
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, it's about 200 shots, if only to let the barrel cool. you can fire more--usually, a lot more--before you start actually running into problems, but exactly how much more is an unknown quantity. you can be fairly sure that you won't run into those problems before 200 shots.
it's kinda like the "best by" date on food. the day after that, the food's probably still good--but there's no guarantee. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:58 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
did you not see the youtube movie? that guy had the trigger down for minute, forty-five seconds. Is there something I don't understand? EDIT: The guy in the clip said:
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Nov 21 2006, 07:41 AM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This is what the US Army says about machine gun barrel changes in combat conditions:
-Sustained Fire: 100 rounds per minute, barrel change every 10 minutes -Rapid Fire: 200 rounds per minute, barrel change every 2 minutes -Cyclic Fire: 450-850rpm (depending on weapon), barrel change every minute These are the same at least for crew served M249, M60 and M240 machine guns. It's pretty obvious that for cyclic fire it would be better for the barrel to be changed more than once per minute -- the field manuals don't say much about it, perhaps because a crew forced to fire cyclically won't care so much about barrel life but and the only real consideration becomes barrel blow-out. In an earlier demonstration they did the same thing with an M60E4, but the barrel blew out at about 800 rounds. "15,000 rounds through a barrel before it needs to be changed" doesn't mean firing all that within a few hours, probably not even one day. What it means is that, with regular maintenance and firing it within normal parameters, a barrel will take, on average, 15,000 rounds through it before it is considered worn out. In training, you'll want to change the barrel much more often than in combat conditions. The more you fire out of the same barrel, the faster they'll wear out. I would expect the barrel life of an M60E4 fired "rapidly" (ie. constant 100 rounds per minute) to be a few thousand. |
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Nov 24 2006, 01:37 AM
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#86
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's a matter of safe/economical practices, and possibly a misunderstanding about what it means to change a barrel. yeah, you can pour 15,000 rounds through one barrel without changing it--but you probably wouldn't want to do so more than once with the same barrel, since when you're done, i'd imagine the barrel is substantially weakened and unsafe to use again. when you change out a barrel, you generally don't throw it away or even do any work on it. with the M249, we just swapped out two barrels, putting the one we'd just used on the parts bag to cool until it was time to swap it back in. doing this every 200 rounds means that your barrel will last for a good, long time. firing more than 200 rounds through one barrel will decrease the lifespan of the barrel--instead of, say, five years, it will only last one or two. military practices tend to heavily favor extending the life of the equipment and minimizing the possiblity of malfunction. if you're constantly pushing the envelope with your equipment's tolerances, you're eventually going to tear the envelope. better to change out barrels to cool off long, long before you start doing damage to them. that way, you have to buy barrels less often, and don't have to worry as much about your barrels malfunctioning. |
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Nov 24 2006, 03:56 AM
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#87
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, to be fair you'd probably have been killed by North Korean arty or WMDs long before you reached your SAW. Had you lucked out, yeah, facing a million soldiers pouring across the DMZ is not a time when you'd want your barrel malfunctioning. |
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Nov 24 2006, 03:57 AM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hey! i can get my mask on inside ten seconds, as long as i've got advance warning. that's only five seconds too long to save my life!
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Nov 24 2006, 04:16 AM
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#89
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
But, yeah, someone who saw a clip on YouTube trying to berate a former SAW gunner on the proper use of a M249 is one of those rare bits of comedy gold you can only find on the Internet.
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Nov 24 2006, 06:14 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
How do you know when a barrel needs to be dumped? Do you just discard it after a certain amount of time or can you tell that a barrel's prone to giving out before it actually does? Or c) none of the above? |
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Nov 24 2006, 06:16 AM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's up to the unit armorer. having never been trained for that position, i couldn't tell you. i'd imagine there are tests that tell you exactly how much wear has been inflicted on the barrel, possibly by measuring the depth of the rifling (like you measure wear on your tires by checking the depth of the tread). but that's just speculation.
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Nov 24 2006, 03:48 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Skinlinks all the way. I'm a hard-core SR3 throw back in that department. Wireless is for the crazies. I hardwire my stuff, and hope for the best. ;) |
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Nov 24 2006, 03:49 PM
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#93
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Hey, we coulda used the SR ruleset to berate - that would have been even better! "In my copy of the BBB, it doesn't even mention barrel swapping. I don't think you really know how to play the game!" |
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Nov 24 2006, 05:53 PM
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#94
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Lorechaser, it ainīt fun to make fun of their inabilities. Let them discuss their petty real-life experience while we DO IT THE RIGHT AND ONLY WAY, BY THE BOOK.
:P Iīd still be interested to know how the testing is done. Maybe measuring circumference and straightness (? not curved) is sufficient to judge damage done. |
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Nov 24 2006, 06:20 PM
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#95
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Rifling, as mfb said, is pretty crucial. Erosion and build-up of metal and/or fowling would be spotted on a closer look at the inside of the barrel. As always, Raygun will doubtless know all about that stuff. :)
Minor stretching and bending can result from normal use, but I would assume that rifling wearing out is a more common reason for militaries replacing barrels. Serious curving or other obvious changes to the proportions of the barrel shouldn't happen unless you constantly do something stupid with the weapon -- like, you know, firing 800 rounds cyclically through it. Keep in mind that "worn out" is quite different for a military general purpose machine gun and, say, a long distance competition shooter's custom rifle. Reduced accuracy might cause the barrel of the latter to be replaced at a point where the former would still be considered in its prime. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 24 2006, 06:33 PM |
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Nov 24 2006, 06:35 PM
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#96
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
So, what exactly is "cyclical" firing?
Does that simply refer to a constant rate of fire, or is it something like fire, cool, fire, cool? I know I could go to Wiki, but I prefer the answers you guys give.... |
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Nov 24 2006, 07:07 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Cyclic (firing) means without any interruptions, such as reloading, fixing jams or indeed for cooling down, at the rate at which the action of the weapon cycles itself.
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Nov 24 2006, 08:28 PM
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#98
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Pretty much what mfb said. Weapons are routinely passed through a unit armorer who has access to the tooling and gauges necessary to determine the condition of the weapon and replaces parts as necessary. The armorer also keeps a log of each weapon by serial number to give him an idea of how many times the weapon has been serviced, a rough idea of how many rounds the weapon has fired, and when certain parts should be checked or replaced. The two most useful tools in terms of determining the condition of a barrel are what are called a headspace gauge and a bore scope. A headspace gauge is a chuck of steel shaped like a cartridge case without the neck or bullet in place. The gauge is precision-machined to a ten thousandth of an inch in order to measure the distance between the shoulder of the chamber and the bolt face. When a barrel wears (through erosion and mechnical wear), this distance increases. It can increase to a point that when fired, recoil will cause the case to back out of the chamber and the bolt face will be too far back to stop it before the case ruptures, in best case causing a bad jam, in worst case destroying the barrel. The headspace test usually fails before the actual rifling is worn beyond a serviceable point. A bore scope (like a non-flexible endoscope) allows the armorer to inspect the rifling from throat to muzzle, but they usually don't take the time to do that. If they see an odd spot with the naked eye, they'll use the bore scope to inspect that spot. Target areas are the throat of the bore, and the port where propellant gases are tapped from the barrel and into the weapon's operating system. Another tool they sometimes use is a barrel comparitor, basically a device like a manual lathe that the barrel is inserted into, allowing it to rotate on its axis, and a gauge that is run along its outside in order to check for any warpage. Barrels can warp when they're run up to really high temperatures and then cooled very quickly (say, dunked in water, dropped in snow, or, in the interest of field-expediency, even pissed on). |
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Nov 24 2006, 08:38 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
Thanks, that was very informative. :)
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