 Leadership, What can I use it for? |
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 Nov 17 2006, 08:31 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630  |
When I was building my elf character. I knew the team needed a face so. I tossed in 30 BP into charisma making it 6. And bought the influence group up to rating 4.
Now of course he's found use for his negotiation skill. Etiquette and Con are things that almost all shadowrunners should know. But what about leadership. What can I actually use it for? Obviously NPC's use it for helping to command underlings. But as a runner I don't have underlings. I suppose if I can't find a use it doesnt really matter the skill group already gave me negotiation, etiquette and con. |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:40 AM
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#2
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Leadership allows you to command the underlings someone you impersonated has. Or you might boss around a friendly gang because they donīt notice.
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Nov 17 2006, 10:01 AM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
Leadership is also the "Crap, I'm stumped. GM, can I have a plan, please?" skill.
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Nov 17 2006, 10:21 AM
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#4
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You have teammates and that's good enough.
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Nov 17 2006, 10:51 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
It can also be used to convince your teammates that your plan is the best one possible and to follow your lead. I know my Social Adept has used it on one or two of my team mate runners. They never had a chance with my Kinsethics and my Charisma + mods vs there willpower and (Lack thereof) Leadership skill.
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Nov 17 2006, 11:21 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Leadership (Persuation)
The Persuation specialization might be very useful for convincing people that YOUR idea is good. Negotiation (Sense Motive) Combine Leadership and Negotiation and you have a hostage negotiator. |
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Nov 17 2006, 01:54 PM
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#7
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I hate resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. Even when I GM. Yes, that might hurt some characters due to player limitations. But a rare "you believe him, his char is an expert and youīre just metagaming" is all that will happen.
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Nov 17 2006, 03:15 PM
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#8
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You aren't hating resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. You are hating the gaping void where good rules to support resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls belong. Now if you actually had real purposeful rules for it then you might still dislike it, but at least you'd be in a position to judge it. |
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Nov 17 2006, 06:59 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 6-October 06 From: Chicago Member No.: 9,557 |
I think its more a discrepancy between player intelligence, skill and willpower vs their characters. I had a group where the character that had all the social skills was the player that didn't have any, and vice versa. That is one aspect of roleplaying that can be very tricky.
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Nov 17 2006, 07:43 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
One interesting thing I noted on the skill is it can effect gut checks. They have no rules as to how. But it be nice if I could use it to boost morale when faced with a paracreature's fear effect. That would be helpful for a shadowrunner team.
The thing about Influence skills and players is they can choose to ignore the result and go with there gut anyway. It isn't right for the result of a social skill to take away the PC's free will. No matter how many hits BillyBob gets on his CON to convince the PC's he won't betray him. The PC should be able to choose not to believe him. The PC won't know for a fact wether or not he's lying. If magic is involved then its ok. But its not ok that an NPC who gets enougth hits can CON a PC into doing something obviously stupid. A PC can also ignore a good result in detecting deception to do it anyway. My first D&D character an elf ranger was offered some dwarven ale. The DM had me make a wisdom check. I made it. He told me I was a bit suspicious about this. But I drank it anyway. Passed out and they stole my pants. In essense I made the check but I chose to go along anyway. Just as if a PC fails a check to detect a lie. They can choose to think its a lie anyway. The trick is YOU DON'T tell them if its a lie unless they detect it. This of course does not apply to magic effects like any kind of mind control or fear effects which by nature remove free will. P.S: My group would never go along with me using leadership to force them into an action, and I have no idea why i'd want to. We go with what ever plan is best. |
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Nov 17 2006, 07:56 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
That's really for the DM to control. A few "The ork's plan seems pretty good" and "You don't really see any flaws" go a long way. Why shouldn't the NPC be able to convince the PCs that it's reasonable? Because the PCs have players that can metagame and figure where the plot is going? That's not right. DM: "Mahatma Ghandi appears, and beseeches you to assist him with bringing bread to his starving people." PC: "It's a trap. I shoot Ghandi." |
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Nov 17 2006, 07:57 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
I did find in one particular mission our group did that Leadership could have been helpful... We were in a mall flooded with zombies (really, it's best if you don't ask). Anyway, herding the panicking civies around was quite difficult since I had taken Con, Negotiate and Etiquette, but neglected to take leadership.
Ahh well. |
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Nov 17 2006, 07:58 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I think I played that game too - did you find the katana on the awning?
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Nov 17 2006, 08:03 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
Yes - near the unlimited fridge of orange juice? :)
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Nov 17 2006, 08:06 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
con: all exits have been sealed off except for <insert the direction you want them to go> over the paging system (this is where a hacker comes in handy). negotiation: if you go this way i'll be your friend? :D etiquette: ummm... you could so horribly offend everyone that they avoid you, thus running in a direction away from you? ;) |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:16 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
There is a fine line between changing your strategy to make use of your strengths rather than your weaknesses, and trying to weasel more dice for essentially the same action. I'm not saying which side of the line you're on, but you're not far from it in either case. |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:21 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Yes but plan can be obviously flawed but just because of good roles the PC is forced to go along. Just because they choose not to believe it doesn't mean its metagaming. First off the GM should roll for the PC's for catching a CON. So they don't know how well they did. So even if it isn't a lie at all the PC can end up not believing it because there so distrustful. On the same token if they get no hits. They don't know they got zero hits. They just know they see no reason not to trust them. This takes metagaming out of the equation while allowing the PC's to retain there freewill. What about a CON from a mafia guy and this thugs saying if they surrender there weapons they'll let them live. Just because the CON is good enougth to convice the players that he's telling the truth doesn't mean the PC's should be forced to give up there arms. Also just because the are convinced its the best plan, doesn't mean the PC's have to go along with it. I can easily see a group picking the fun plan over the boring one. They can also believe the fun plan is the best one. You also have the issue of PC's being conned into obviously stupid things just because they got unlucky and scored zero hits. The way we set up the use of social skills in our group. The PC's maintain there free will but metagaming is avoided. Its how we do it. |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:24 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I think it would be difficult to be more offensive than a mall full of zombies. ;)
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Nov 17 2006, 08:26 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I see that as the exact same problem the socially awkward player faces trying to be the Face. That's why the PCs get to roll - sometimes they just can't argue like their PC. If it's a bad plan, that's one thing. If it's the GM explaining the plan badly, that's another. ;) |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:30 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
oh i know. the con suggestion was at least fairly legitimate, in that i could see it working to some extent (though there would still be some who don't believe you, and some people are just dumb and would go towards a sealed door anyways), but the other two were me being facetious |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:34 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
My character would rally them by simply showiing what an 18 dice pool can do with a machine pistol loaded with ex-explosive ammo. That would blow off a few zombie heads per inititve pass. Then he'd use his influence skills. (with a good bonus I'd wager) Sense it appears a few people played that adventure. Where did you find it as it sounds like fun, I could email my GM with the location. A chance for my character to finally say. "I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before." |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:45 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
This problem exists for all of the mental stats. It is hard for a dumb, non-intuitive, non-charismatic, weak willed player to role-play a genius, charismatic willful character. This is why I model all of my characters mental attributes after my own. Will: 7 Cha: 7 Int: 7 Log: 7 Just have to take exceptional attribute 4 times :) |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:48 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866 |
The adventure you described as nearly identical to a recent Xbox 360 game called Dead Rising. |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:52 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
nah, you're in a shopping mall. all you need is to go to the right store and you've got *lots* of ammo :P |
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Nov 17 2006, 08:55 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
I noticed that but I got the implication someone wrote up a an actually shadowrun adventure. |
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