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Jack Kain
When I was building my elf character. I knew the team needed a face so. I tossed in 30 BP into charisma making it 6. And bought the influence group up to rating 4.
Now of course he's found use for his negotiation skill. Etiquette and Con are things that almost all shadowrunners should know.

But what about leadership. What can I actually use it for? Obviously NPC's use it for helping to command underlings. But as a runner I don't have underlings.
I suppose if I can't find a use it doesnt really matter the skill group already gave me negotiation, etiquette and con.

Ryu
Leadership allows you to command the underlings someone you impersonated has. Or you might boss around a friendly gang because they don´t notice.
Wakshaani
Leadership is also the "Crap, I'm stumped. GM, can I have a plan, please?" skill.
hyzmarca
You have teammates and that's good enough.
Magus
It can also be used to convince your teammates that your plan is the best one possible and to follow your lead. I know my Social Adept has used it on one or two of my team mate runners. They never had a chance with my Kinsethics and my Charisma + mods vs there willpower and (Lack thereof) Leadership skill.
The Jopp
Leadership (Persuation)

The Persuation specialization might be very useful for convincing people that YOUR idea is good.

Negotiation (Sense Motive)

Combine Leadership and Negotiation and you have a hostage negotiator.
Ryu
I hate resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. Even when I GM. Yes, that might hurt some characters due to player limitations. But a rare "you believe him, his char is an expert and you´re just metagaming" is all that will happen.
blakkie
QUOTE (Ryu)
I hate resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. Even when I GM. Yes, that might hurt some characters due to player limitations. But a rare "you believe him, his char is an expert and you´re just metagaming" is all that will happen.

You aren't hating resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. You are hating the gaping void where good rules to support resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls belong. Now if you actually had real purposeful rules for it then you might still dislike it, but at least you'd be in a position to judge it.
GWCarver
I think its more a discrepancy between player intelligence, skill and willpower vs their characters. I had a group where the character that had all the social skills was the player that didn't have any, and vice versa. That is one aspect of roleplaying that can be very tricky.
Jack Kain
One interesting thing I noted on the skill is it can effect gut checks. They have no rules as to how. But it be nice if I could use it to boost morale when faced with a paracreature's fear effect. That would be helpful for a shadowrunner team.


The thing about Influence skills and players is they can choose to ignore the result and go with there gut anyway. It isn't right for the result of a social skill to take away the PC's free will.

No matter how many hits BillyBob gets on his CON to convince the PC's he won't betray him. The PC should be able to choose not to believe him. The PC won't know for a fact wether or not he's lying. If magic is involved then its ok.
But its not ok that an NPC who gets enougth hits can CON a PC into doing something obviously stupid. A PC can also ignore a good result in detecting deception to do it anyway.

My first D&D character an elf ranger was offered some dwarven ale. The DM had me make a wisdom check. I made it. He told me I was a bit suspicious about this. But I drank it anyway. Passed out and they stole my pants. In essense I made the check but I chose to go along anyway. Just as if a PC fails a check to detect a lie. They can choose to think its a lie anyway.

The trick is YOU DON'T tell them if its a lie unless they detect it.

This of course does not apply to magic effects like any kind of mind control or fear effects which by nature remove free will.


P.S: My group would never go along with me using leadership to force them into an action, and I have no idea why i'd want to. We go with what ever plan is best.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
The thing about Influence skills and players is they can choose to ignore the result and go with there gut anyway. It isn't right for the result of a social skill to take away the PC's free will.

No matter how many hits BillyBob gets on his CON to convince the PC's he won't betray him. The PC should be able to choose not to believe him. The PC won't know for a fact wether or not he's lying. If magic is involved then its ok.
But its not ok that an NPC who gets enougth hits can CON a PC into doing something obviously stupid. A PC can also ignore a good result in detecting deception to do it anyway.


That's really for the DM to control.

A few "The ork's plan seems pretty good" and "You don't really see any flaws" go a long way.

Why shouldn't the NPC be able to convince the PCs that it's reasonable? Because the PCs have players that can metagame and figure where the plot is going? That's not right.

DM: "Mahatma Ghandi appears, and beseeches you to assist him with bringing bread to his starving people."

PC: "It's a trap. I shoot Ghandi."



Aemon
I did find in one particular mission our group did that Leadership could have been helpful... We were in a mall flooded with zombies (really, it's best if you don't ask). Anyway, herding the panicking civies around was quite difficult since I had taken Con, Negotiate and Etiquette, but neglected to take leadership.

Ahh well.

lorechaser
I think I played that game too - did you find the katana on the awning?
Aemon
Yes - near the unlimited fridge of orange juice? smile.gif


Jaid
QUOTE (Aemon)
I did find in one particular mission our group did that Leadership could have been helpful... We were in a mall flooded with zombies (really, it's best if you don't ask). Anyway, herding the panicking civies around was quite difficult since I had taken Con, Negotiate and Etiquette, but neglected to take leadership.

Ahh well.

con: all exits have been sealed off except for <insert the direction you want them to go> over the paging system (this is where a hacker comes in handy).

negotiation: if you go this way i'll be your friend? biggrin.gif

etiquette: ummm... you could so horribly offend everyone that they avoid you, thus running in a direction away from you? wink.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Aemon @ Nov 17 2006, 02:57 PM)
I did find in one particular mission our group did that Leadership could have been helpful... We were in a mall flooded with zombies (really, it's best if you don't ask).  Anyway, herding the panicking civies around was quite difficult since I had taken Con, Negotiate and Etiquette, but neglected to take leadership.

Ahh well.

con: all exits have been sealed off except for <insert the direction you want them to go> over the paging system (this is where a hacker comes in handy).

negotiation: if you go this way i'll be your friend? biggrin.gif

etiquette: ummm... you could so horribly offend everyone that they avoid you, thus running in a direction away from you? wink.gif

There is a fine line between changing your strategy to make use of your strengths rather than your weaknesses, and trying to weasel more dice for essentially the same action.

I'm not saying which side of the line you're on, but you're not far from it in either case.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (lorechaser)
That's really for the DM to control.

A few "The ork's plan seems pretty good" and "You don't really see any flaws" go a long way.

Why shouldn't the NPC be able to convince the PCs that it's reasonable? Because the PCs have players that can metagame and figure where the plot is going? That's not right.

DM: "Mahatma Ghandi appears, and beseeches you to assist him with bringing bread to his starving people."

PC: "It's a trap. I shoot Ghandi."

Yes but plan can be obviously flawed but just because of good roles the PC is forced to go along.

Just because they choose not to believe it doesn't mean its metagaming.
First off the GM should roll for the PC's for catching a CON. So they don't know how well they did. So even if it isn't a lie at all the PC can end up not believing it because there so distrustful. On the same token if they get no hits. They don't know they got zero hits. They just know they see no reason not to trust them. This takes metagaming out of the equation while allowing the PC's to retain there freewill.

What about a CON from a mafia guy and this thugs saying if they surrender there weapons they'll let them live. Just because the CON is good enougth to convice the players that he's telling the truth doesn't mean the PC's should be forced to give up there arms.

Also just because the are convinced its the best plan, doesn't mean the PC's have to go along with it. I can easily see a group picking the fun plan over the boring one. They can also believe the fun plan is the best one.

You also have the issue of PC's being conned into obviously stupid things just because they got unlucky and scored zero hits.

The way we set up the use of social skills in our group. The PC's maintain there free will but metagaming is avoided. Its how we do it.



lorechaser
I think it would be difficult to be more offensive than a mall full of zombies. wink.gif
lorechaser
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Yes but plan can be obviously flawed but just because of good roles the PC is forced to go along.

I see that as the exact same problem the socially awkward player faces trying to be the Face. That's why the PCs get to roll - sometimes they just can't argue like their PC.

If it's a bad plan, that's one thing. If it's the GM explaining the plan badly, that's another. wink.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
There is a fine line between changing your strategy to make use of your strengths rather than your weaknesses, and trying to weasel more dice for essentially the same action.

I'm not saying which side of the line you're on, but you're not far from it in either case.

oh i know. the con suggestion was at least fairly legitimate, in that i could see it working to some extent (though there would still be some who don't believe you, and some people are just dumb and would go towards a sealed door anyways), but the other two were me being facetious
Jack Kain
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 17 2006, 03:24 PM)
I think it would be difficult to be more offensive than a mall full of zombies.  wink.gif

My character would rally them by simply showiing what an 18 dice pool can do with a machine pistol loaded with ex-explosive ammo. That would blow off a few zombie heads per inititve pass. Then he'd use his influence skills. (with a good bonus I'd wager)

Sense it appears a few people played that adventure. Where did you find it as it sounds like fun, I could email my GM with the location.
A chance for my character to finally say.
"I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before."
IvanTank
QUOTE (GWCarver)
I think its more a discrepancy between player intelligence, skill and willpower vs their characters. I had a group where the character that had all the social skills was the player that didn't have any, and vice versa. That is one aspect of roleplaying that can be very tricky.

This problem exists for all of the mental stats. It is hard for a dumb, non-intuitive, non-charismatic, weak willed player to role-play a genius, charismatic willful character. This is why I model all of my characters mental attributes after my own.

Will: 7
Cha: 7
Int: 7
Log: 7

Just have to take exceptional attribute 4 times smile.gif
IvanTank
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Sense it appears a few people played that adventure. Where did you find it as it sounds like fun, I could email my GM with the location.
A chance for my character to finally say.
"I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before."

The adventure you described as nearly identical to a recent Xbox 360 game called Dead Rising.
Jaid
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Sense it appears a few people played that adventure. Where did you find it as it sounds like fun, I could email my GM with the location.
A chance for my character to finally say.
"I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before."

nah, you're in a shopping mall. all you need is to go to the right store and you've got *lots* of ammo nyahnyah.gif
Jack Kain
QUOTE (IvanTank)
The adventure you described as nearly identical to a recent Xbox 360 game called Dead Rising.

I noticed that but I got the implication someone wrote up a an actually shadowrun adventure.
lorechaser
Not yet.

*mutters*Where's that "submitting to SR" thread again?.....
Penta
QUOTE (IvanTank)
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Nov 17 2006, 03:34 PM)
Sense it appears a few people played that adventure. Where did you find it as it sounds like fun, I could email my GM with the location.
A chance for my character to finally say.
"I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before."

The adventure you described as nearly identical to a recent Xbox 360 game called Dead Rising.

Oh, who're we kidding?

It's Dawn of the Living Dead.
Aemon
Oh, make no mistake... this zombie-infested mall adventure was spawned as a direct influence from Dead Rising, Dawn of the Dead, and other like zombie movies.

It's just the one instance I really ached for Leadership and didn't have it.

By-the-by, I was trying to use Leadership to get people to listen to me and stop running around in a dead panic. Mostly I was trying to gather people up so that the Zombies can eat them first while we made our get away.
Jack Kain
Maybe we should start with some good zombie rules, Street magic has there zombies as vessals. But I don't think it captures the classic monster horde we've all come to know. Ghouls also don't quite fit.

Hmm ideas

Critter Powers:
Immunity to Toxins and Disease, Immune to Stun damage.
Tough as the Grave: Cacualte a zombies wound box's as 8+(body divided by 2 round up+body) They have no damage overflow an cease to function when all wound boxs are filled.

Weakness: Lost sapience, A zombie has lost its sapience and all skills they possesd in life.
Can't be healed. Damage to a zombies body can never heal in anyway.
Head shot, by taking a -4 dice penalty one may target a zombie in the head. They are destoried if the attack deals X(what should be X?) boxs of damage.
Vunerible to Fire: Fire attacks deal +4 DV to zombies. This bonus can not be more then the base damage of the attack. (ie no killing zombies with a lighter.)

My idea here with the head shot is, you can't really nickle and dime a zombie down. You need to blow off body parts or shoot them in the head.

It be nice to keep the zombie threat more to there numbers. Say only 4 dice when attacking alone.
Friends in melee can add up to 4 dice when attacking and the penalties from dodging multiple enemies adds up even quicker.


or maybe just use ghouls with reaction and mental scores of 1.
Moon-Hawk
I don't know that zombies need extra damage from fire. The simple fact that they are combustible and too stupid to extinguish themselves is what makes fire so darn effective.
I really like the Tough as the Grave, effectively letting them add what used to be their overflow to their damage track.
Maybe add: Weakness: can't run. But that depends on your particular zombie-genre. Some zombies can run.
Jack Kain
The reason for the fire weakness is because of how fire causes damages the flesh. It makes it rather unusable even for a zombie. Its more of the zombie being tough againts physical damage but not againts things such as fire. Acid would be givin similar bonus but not electricity (as who do you electrocute a corpse?).

the tough as grave is the zombie using the damge overflow as additonal health. That was the best way I could think to explain it.


Runing Zombies are pretty much ghouls with out Sapience or dual natured
Moon-Hawk
Yeah, but I still don't see fire as doing all that much more to zombie flesh than it does to human flesh. Plus, I really like the idea of burning zombies shambling after people spreading chaos for a turn or two waiting to burn out, and you get more of that if it only does standard damage.
smile.gif
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Nov 17 2006, 05:09 PM)
Yeah, but I still don't see fire as doing all that much more to zombie flesh than it does to human flesh.  Plus, I really like the idea of burning zombies shambling after people spreading chaos for a turn or two waiting to burn out, and you get more of that if it only does standard damage.
smile.gif

Well how would the burning zombie work?
Its not about fire damaging a zombie more then a human. Its that fire is more effective then a bullet thats not to the head. So making the zombie burn over time is fine to.
Moon-Hawk
Let's see, either have the burning zombie resist X damage, or simply take X damage unresisted if it's simpler to keep track of. Burning zombie tends to light things on fire, and does extra damage and deals damage when attacked similar to the flame aura spell. Just pick a "force" for the spell, say 4, so melee attacks resist DV 4 fire damage.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
The reason for the fire weakness is because of how fire causes damages the flesh. It makes it rather unusable even for a zombie. Its more of the zombie being tough againts physical damage but not againts things such as fire. Acid would be givin similar bonus but not electricity (as who do you electrocute a corpse?).

the tough as grave is the zombie using the damge overflow as additonal health. That was the best way I could think to explain it.


Runing Zombies are pretty much ghouls with out Sapience or dual natured

Electricity is the only way to kill a zombie without releasing deadly trioxin gas and creating even more zombies.

QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 17 2006, 07:54 AM)
I hate resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. Even when I GM. Yes, that might hurt some characters due to player limitations. But a rare "you believe him, his char is an expert and you´re just metagaming" is all that will happen.

You aren't hating resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls. You are hating the gaping void where good rules to support resolution of ingroup discussions by dice rolls belong. Now if you actually had real purposeful rules for it then you might still dislike it, but at least you'd be in a position to judge it.


The ultimate problem with resolving ingroup discussions by dice rolls is the .01 essence hot lesbian elf samurai and male pornomancer who has a thing for metal boobies.
He ends up being emasculated, decapitated, shot, dismembered, set on fire, blended into thick slurry, and flushed down the toilet in his sleep but it was worth it, dammit. wink.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The ultimate problem with resolving ingroup discussions by dice rolls is the .01 essence hot lesbian elf samurai and male pornomancer who has a thing for metal boobies.
He ends up being emasculated, decapitated, shot, dismembered, set on fire, blended into thick slurry, and flushed down the toilet in his sleep but it was worth it, dammit. wink.gif

So what you are saying is that there's no problem? smile.gif
Jack Kain
Hmm.
Body 5, Agilty 2, Reaction 1, Strength: 5
Logic, Will, and Cha of 1.
Skills: Unarmed 2.
Zombies usually attack by slaming there fists into the target while attempting to force them to the ground and devour them alive or not. Zombies can use simple weapons like clubs, axes or swords but aren't smart enougth to pick one up. If a zombie comes at you with a fire axe its likly he held the item before dying and never dropped it.

(there immune to stun so they need no will power)

Other powers: dead mind. A zombie does not know pain it does not know fear.(but they will taste man flesh) Any magic used to influence the emotions or mind of a zombie fails.

perhaps under tough as grave a note that a zombie takes penalties every six wound boxs instead of 3. As they feel no pain but if you hack off enougth of a zombie or impale them on a spear it will slow them down.

Most cyberware shuts down on a zombie as it is no longer powered by the body. More physical changes such as dermal plating function fine as do bone lacing. But things such as wired reflexs, reaction enhancers and cyberlimbs do not. Musicle replacement still functions. Over all its DM's all wether not a walking corpse can benfit from the cyber/bioware in question.


The idea here is the zombie only has 4 dice to attack but chances are you'll be fighting four or five at once which will add four dice making it a total of 8.
PlatonicPimp
Did every one of you miss the rules for shedim?
Jack Kain
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 17 2006, 07:57 PM)
Did every one of you miss the rules for shedim?

Did you miss my post up there? yes you did. I already mentioned street magic and what I thought of there zombies.
I'm not looking for some stupid possesed vessals that the Shedim use. Those are just another way of binding spirits and in no way capture the night of the living dead zombies.
PlatonicPimp
Sorry, mistook you. In SR parlance, Zombies usually refers to the things made by voodoo possession.

Well, I guess if you really need specific things from your zombies that it doesn't provide. but the shedim were introduced specifically to give you your fix of zombie.
IvanTank
In order to maintain some sort of consistency of the topics in this forum, i must ask. What is the leadership skill rating for zombies?
Wakshaani
QUOTE (IvanTank)
In order to maintain some sort of consistency of the topics in this forum, i must ask. What is the leadership skill rating for zombies?

They lack teh skill, so default to Charisma -1.

And a zombie ain't exactly the King of Charisma.

...

Poor guys aren't evil! They're just directionles!

We need a motivational speaker and a work program, stat!

Zombie, "Raaugh. Mwar grr flarrgh dur rauuuuuugh. Zog tur goggle? Brah!" **

** Translation, "I was in a bad way. No home, no job, all I had were the rags on my back, up until Wuxing came along and offered me a job. How did I ever get by before today, where I work on an assembly line, making shoes in a shop-environment for twelve hours a day at a competitive international payscale? I don't know, but these days, I have the skilled management of Wuxing to thank!"

See?

LEADERSHIP!

It's what's for Zombies!
Crusher Bob
Love has been known to provide a +2 circumstance bonus

If you can't think of what to do with leadership, let a PC use it to add dice to another (N)PCs actions. Say, for every success you get on the leadership roll, add another die to the roll being modified.

Of course, this leads to things like the pornomancer giving you plus seven dice for something... But on the more normal end fo the scale, +3 dice from leadership 9 dosen't sound too bad. After all, you can get +3 dice from the hacker helping you out with good online references. Why not let the leader get in on the bonus dice action?
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