 flesh form & ally spirit |
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  Nov 24 2006, 04:16 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 323 Joined: 17-November 06 From: 1984 Member No.: 9,891  |
Disclaimer: i am aware that the ally rules are pretty broken, but that shouldnt be the point here.
I was talking with a co-worker the other day if it would be possible to summon an ally into a living metahuman being and what the resulting powers of that would be. lets assume that you gain a flesh form as a result: would this give your ally the power of masking, would your ally gain all the skills of the victim? would you have to pay with karma for those 'auto' powers ? or is it not possible at all and only an option for free spirits? (if there already has been a discussion about this, please let me know where to find it, i have picked Incompetence: Search during player creation) |
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Nov 24 2006, 04:18 PM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes.
Nope. Although the spirit would be stuck in one place, no longer able to metaplanar shortcut to your location. -Frank |
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Nov 24 2006, 05:01 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
and actually, the ally spirit rules aren't really broken. other than the non-increasing costs for higher force, that is.
other than that, allies are bloody expensive... |
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Nov 24 2006, 05:44 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 337 Joined: 1-September 06 From: LI, New York Member No.: 9,286 |
On a similar note, if the host body has cyber/bio (reduced essence) does the spirit occupying it have a lower magic?
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Nov 24 2006, 06:11 PM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. Although if you added Cyberware later, the spirit's Magic would drop. -Frank |
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Nov 24 2006, 10:47 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Which of course, means that folks with access to delta, lots of cash, and mages with no scruples *cough* Azzies *cough* can have some pretty nasty, completely loyal, cyberzombies to throw at you.
BTW, does this require a possession tradition to do, or can anybody drop an ally into a meta? |
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Nov 24 2006, 10:52 PM
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#7
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think only Ally Spirits of magicians from a Possession Tradition can have access to the Power necessary.
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Nov 24 2006, 10:55 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Anybody* can drop an ally into a metahuman. The techniques of inhabitation are available to every Insect Shaman, and any magician with the Ally metamagic.
And yes, using the rules for Inhabitation out of Street Magic you can duplicate the effects of cyberzombies. It's almost like... *: In this case "anybody" is a restricted set of powerful initiates with a pile of karma and Insect shamans. -Frank |
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Nov 24 2006, 10:56 PM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I stand corrected. :)
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Nov 24 2006, 11:18 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
We don't need no steeenkeeen IMU.
That should make CZs a lot more common among top-flight black ops units, especially after the AAAs have had a couple of decades to work some of the bugs out of the system. And best of all, if somebody drops a tacnuke on one, you can drop it in another body in a month. The owning mage had better be cranial bombed, brainwashed, and have ritual samples taken to keep it friendly, though. |
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Nov 25 2006, 02:10 AM
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#11
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Now for the 6 million :nuyen: question: Does an ally spirit summoned by an insect shaman not suffer from evanescence and get access to all those funky Insect powers? Can an Insect shaman go toxic? Can Insect spirits go toxic? Can a toxic shaman summon toxic Insect spirits? :D
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Nov 25 2006, 02:46 AM
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#12
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Unfortunately, the answer is "yes". That was the primary argument for making all the special insect spirit modifications into Mentor Spirit Modifiers of the insect totems rather than arbitrary rules. Unfortunately, the arbitrary writeups happened instead, and now Insect Magicians can learn Metamorphosis and Ally and have a Queen and an Ally. And the Ally will end up being some funky thing that cherry picks the most hilarious powers off the Insect list with none of the weaknesses. Sigh.
No. But a Toxic magician can banish an insect spirit, take control of it with summoning, and then use the fucking "Corruption" metamagic to.... uh... do.... something. This is why I wanted the Threats Chapter to be more grounded in templates and rubrics rather than a series of arbitrary new spirit types. There aren't any rules for what happens when many of the non-standard spirit interactions occur. If a follower of Mutation takes control of a Water Elemental and corrupts it... what? There isn't even a complete set of five sample spirits for the Mutation branch of Toxic magicians to have, let alone a conversion template for non-tradition spirits that get corrupted. Often you'll end up having to make up a whole new spirit type off the top of your head in the middle of combat. /vent /rant -Frank |
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Nov 25 2006, 03:29 AM
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#13
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So a toxic shaman can only be derived from a "normal" mage and an Insect shaman is "protected" from "toxicity". I do not really mind that there isn't a toxic Water spirit specific to Mutation. What I do mind is that there aren't a full set(10) of toxic spirits. I mean you could say that in terms of game mechanics, there isn't a difference between a toxic Water spirit summoned by Pestilent Rat and Mutation. But having less than 10 toxic sample spirits(that's including the ones in the "templates"), you don't have any canon interpretation of a toxic task spirit.
All of their strengths, none of their weaknesses... |
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Nov 25 2006, 04:24 AM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Not exactly, but pretty much. A toxic magician gets their power from the dark and poisoned parts of the Earth. An Insect magician doesn't get power from the Earth at all. Klandathu isn't the Earth, it's not even similar. A toxic magician gets more powerful in areas where the mana has been poisoned by tears in the Earth or pools of poison heaped in thee waters. These sites have the mana of Earth turned against itself in a caustic miasma of hopeless despair. An insect magician's power sites are locations that have been spiritually attuned to the Hive. These sites are alien, incomprehensible to Earth mages - as perplexing as they are terrifying. So where would a toxic insect mage get their power? A site that had been attuned to poisoned Klandathu? How would we even be able to tell the difference? +1 and -1 are easy to recognize as quantities and opposites. But +Ikthitkik and -Ikthitkik share more in common than they have differences to the human eyes that are judging them. In short, while Toxic Insect Magicians may well exist, we don't have enough paradigm in common with either to tell them apart. Sometimes insect hives and nests go after each other in a big way. Some insect magicians work for Firewatch. Some will die before they bend knee to Damien Knight. For all we know, humanity may be siding with the Toxic side of the insect tradition. There are very major wars among the insects. Ares has chosen a side, but even they don't know how many sides there are.
That quote only works if you have a male mantis spirit to fill in for your ally. He could have a wicked awesome sword and a badass motorcycle. -Frank |
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Nov 25 2006, 07:25 AM
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#15
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You do not need to be toxic to go to war.
Everyone fights, no one quits... Maybe I'd run the SST RPG using the SR4 rules set :P. |
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Nov 25 2006, 08:21 AM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Three Quick Questions:
If a magician Summons an Inhabiting Ally and has it Inhabit himself, can he still add his binding dice to influence the merge toward a flesh form or is he prevented from doing so by the complete obliteration of his soul? What happens if an Insect Shaman Invokes a bug? There aren't any rules for Great Form Insects. Would Invoking or Blood Invoking during the Ally binding ritual be a complete perversion of that particular rules loophole? (Invoking is done during the binding test and Allies require a binding test, thus allowing one to argue in favor of Invoking Allies by the RAW.) I ask because the Aztlan sourcebook explicitly states (In the rules section, not the flavor section) that Blood Allies do exist; but, previous ally spirit rules made it impossible to create them without a houserule (of course, since it was impossible for a PC to know Sacrificing without a houserule this wasn't much of a problem). |
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Nov 25 2006, 08:28 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Also, Are you houseruling the toxic and insect spirits to work on the template you mentioned in your home game? If so, can you post those house rules here?
And did you ever find out if you can share your rejected proposals on dumpshock? |
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Nov 25 2006, 08:29 AM
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#18
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Still not much of a problem unless you ignore the "recommendations" in SM. |
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Nov 25 2006, 05:26 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The important thing is that performing the ritual requires you to do things to the vessel. You can't be the proposed inhabitation vessel and complete the ritual - attempting to be both the subject and object of that sentence automatically fails. You can grab some other magician and slap your spirit into them. Then you can get into philosophical discussions about identity.
Sigh. Don't I know it. My proposal was to start the five spirits of the Insect Spirit as: Task (Worker) Guardian (Soldier) Guidance (Nymph) Beast (Caretaker) Air (Scout) And yes, I'm aware that the powers and stats and powers got moved around even more by the Threats chapter author in order to make them "feel more unique" - but that's pretty much where they came from. So when looked at in that respect, an Invoked Insect Spirit should get: Caretaker: Paralyzing Howl Nymph: Astral Gateway (we know where that goes!) Scout: Storm* Soldier: Endowment Worker: Endowment *: The scout was heavily influenced by the spirit of man by the time it was completed, if you wanted to substitute Compulsion, I wouldn't fault you at all.
I don't really have a problem with Invoking Allies. That's why I wanted them to be a specific spirit type with extra powers rather than a unique spirit type with no stat line. Every time you make a unique spirit type, you confuse the issue as far as Invoking goes. As for Blood Invoking - any use of it is a perversion of that rules loophole. Adding to Force is something I cannot discuss in detail without swearing. If you made it something reasonable (like using the standard Essence Drain temporary boost rules from the Basic Book combined with the normal Essence Loss rules), then I wouldn't have a problem with that either. But as is, Evanescence doesn't even affect Blood Spirits, because they can take a complex action to Materialize at any time and simply choose not to lose Force. There's so much wrong with Blood Invoking as written that I'm going to change the subject.
Yeah.
Sure, I'll write them up and post them.
Yeah. What did people want me to post? I don't even remember. -Frank |
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Nov 25 2006, 08:21 PM
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#20
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Everything! :) |
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Nov 25 2006, 09:08 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Yeah, pretty much all of it. You speak so forcefully about how they changed what you wanted to see, and I've been impressed with a lot of your other work. I'd like to compare what you proposed to what is in the book. Everywhere. Seeing as how I'm rewriting all of them myself. I need a second opinion.
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Nov 27 2006, 07:50 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 340 Joined: 18-September 06 From: Chicago (CZ) Member No.: 9,422 |
Well the things he talks about makes since! There are a lot of things in shadowrun that dont have a relationship or answers. I'm glad at least someone is thinking of them.
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Nov 28 2006, 10:52 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Next stupid question...
A corp "acquires" a TM (brainwashed, drugged, or an iced veggie), slaps lots of chrome on them (driving down resonance, but not to 0), and then drops an ally in it. Assuming they can swing the roll to flesh or hybrid (whichever is better), what happens? Does the spirit retain full TM powers? Does it gain resonance at Force level or just at whatever level the TM last had (which would be a good reason to drop the chrome in this case)? Are its skills boosted any at all by the ally? If the mage has Task spirits, can they select technical TM skills (e.g., TM cybercombat)--if so, I assume you use the higher of the ally's and the vessel's skills rather than adding them together? What happens to mental attributes? I'm not totally clear on those. |
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Nov 28 2006, 11:11 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
While it is indeed unclear the intent of the developers was that during Inhabitation the vessel's Mental and Special attributes also be subsumed by the spirit's in the same manner as Possession.
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Nov 28 2006, 11:17 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If a Spirit Possesses or Inhabits someone with a Cerebral Booster, would the Bioware boost the Spirit's Logic after it had subsumed its victim's Mental Attributes?
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