Weapon Foci in the hands of a mundane, Can anyone use a Weapon Foci to hurt? Options

[TheRedRightHand]

Just a quick question.

I know that only a mage who has bond himself to a Weapon Foci can gain the magical benifits from it (+'s to melee combat pools), but what if a mundane picked up the mage's sword foci and swung it at an Air Spirit with the immunity to normal weapons power?

Would the magical sword still hurt the spirit (because it is still magical no matter who is using it) or would it be considered a "normal weapon" in this case because the user wasn't a mage or bound to it?


Basically I could go either way on this. I don't like the idea of the mundanes in my party buying magica sowrds,clubs, etc... that they can't bond to but can still use as magic weapons against spirits (obviously without the +melee benifits), but at the same time I can see magical foci causing damage to a spirit no matter who is using it, because there are always magical in nature, wether bound to a mage or not, so they should be able to hurt/disrupt a spirit if it hits one.

[Konsaki]

All weapon foci start out as a standard weapon but have that little bit extra that adepts can unlock due to bonding with it. Mundanes can use them, but they dont get the special stuff the adept would, just treat it like a normal weapon though really expensive...

[TheRedRightHand]

But would they count as a "Normal weapon" against Spirits with the "Immunity to Normal weapons" power, or would they count as being a magical weapon?

[Glyph]

They would count as normal weapons, because they would not be active in the hands of a mundane. The rules are very specific that only the owner can use a focus, so it wouldn't even be possible for a mage or adept to activate their weapon focus and let someone else use it. Only the person who has bound a weapon focus can use it as such.

[TheRedRightHand]

But wouldn't even an inactive magial foci, still be considered magical? I mean wouldn't it show up as magical if you looked at it astrally? Wouldn't it still have a magical aura?


*I'm just playing the devils advocate here. This situation has just come up in my campaign, and I am on the side of it not working, but I know what my players are going to say next time we get together. So I want to be ready for what they ask/come up with.*

[Cold-Dragon]

Only an active Focus actually cause problems as far as Interacting with other astral things goes - that's why the elevator situation comes into play, but only against something active.

A weapon foci is considered active when you use it -provided it's yours to use. Since the Mundane isn't linked to the weapon, they can't activate it with the swing, so it wouldn't be magical at the time (sad but true. would have been a nice way around some problems).

As far as how it looks, when active it will have the obvious aura and color, but when not active, it will just look like an object. Assensing it will reveal the magical potential however.

[yoippari]

Seems like bonding is like turning the foci Anyone can swing a chainsaw, but only someone who knows how to turn it on will be able to use it to its fullest extent. So unless the foci is "turned on" by being used by it's bonded owner it would just be shaped like a weapon.

[TheRedRightHand]

Sweet. Thanks guys for the quick replies.

[Onyx]

This then bring up a question that I have had for a while...How could you have a magical weapon that can be used in the hands of the mundane?

From a previous post someone mentioned the Potato Gun with the Devil Rat shoved down the barrel. But in my opinion makes the ammo and the reloading difficult to manage. ;)

Would it be however possible for someone to simply have a spirit Materialize in the form of the users desired weapon and hope that the need to use it doesn't extend past dawn or dusk? Then based on the force of the spirit it would provide its bonuses toward the skill used?

[hyzmarca]

A weapon focus doesn't bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons because it is enchanted. It bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons because it is dual natured. You're attacking the spirit on both the physical plane and the astral plane at the same time.
You can achieve a similar effect by grabbing a ghoul by the ankles and swinging him around as an improvised club.

[Wakshaani]

Note that you can still "Will Attack", which can mess with a spirit.

IIRC, it's Willpower + Banishing (Or raw Willpower) to hit, (Defended by Force? Unsure...) with damage equal to your Charisma (Reduced by Force)

So, while the thing might not work for you, it might make you willing to pick it up and *try*, starting a Will Attack on the thing.

Mind you, I've always been a sucker for that.

"Foolish mortal! Your feeble weapons have no effect on me!"

"YEah, well..." *punch* ... "Holy Frak! That worked!"

*recovering* "Your will be a most PAINFUL death for that!"

"Yipes!" *runrunrun*

[hyzmarca]

If you're going to will attack use a fishing pole for the reach bonus. Mundanes without ghoul clubs or dual-natured elves in gimp suits to use as weapons should always carry a Ronco Pocket fisherman just in case.

[Mikado]

Reach bonuses do not apply when making an "attack of will" as per pg 94 SM.
And as far as I can tell from the paragraph, base damage is (Charisma)P and that is not reduced by the spirits force

[Cold-Dragon]

It's not, but using an attack of will is resisted with force or twice force - it's a very limited fashion of fighting, especially without training. It's essentially just Banishing, but hurting the spirit instead of attacking the services...

Very nutty thing, banishing and attacking.

[Jaid]

[mfb]

[Cold-Dragon]

The simplest method, imo, is to just make a basic manipulation spell that saturates an object with energy - enough to make a spot on the astral that can hit something. I figure if you can make a mana barrier that can bite back when poked, you can borrow that concept and slip it onto a bullet so that it bites on impact, yes?

At which point you either make it sustained, and it works on a certain amount of material (So the lone star mage has more work) or else you make it pseudo-permanent - 24 hours for giving it a charge (also more work for the mage, but can be done in advance).

[Lord Ben]

If you want to harm a spirit, just shoot it really hard. They're really not THAT tough.

[Ancient History]

[PlatonicPimp]

which is how I'd do it. An anchoring focus with the appropriate combat spell attached, (slay spirit) set to go off whenever it hits said spirit.

of course, that's one shot, so eh.

I've always wanted a sustained combat spell. The visual I've always worked on was the summoned swords of light from like half the cartoons ever (though ryoko from tenchi muyo specifically).

Touch spell, damage equal to hits on the test, sustained. A mana version makes a great assassin's weapons and spirit killer, the physical version would be more overtly useful. Attack using your blade skill. The damage is treated as being from a manabolt for the mana version, powerbolt for the physical version.

A sustaining focus would help, of course. Even with the focus, however, it can't be used by anyone but the mage. A Quickened or Anchored version would be able to be handed off.

I'm thinking drain as (force/2)+1.

[Jaid]

[Jack Kain]

Remember that immunity to normal weapon is just a kind of Harden Armor that is overcome by magic weapons and isn't effected by armor penetration as it isn't actually armor.

[Lord Ben]

The minimum Modified DV from a long narrow burst with an Ares Alpha with EX rounds does 14P -3ap which could defeat the immunity to normal weapons that the critter has if it's a Force 8 spirit or less. Figure that the force 8 spirit gets it's 8 average successes on a body roll it still takes 6P damage. And that's the bare minimum of successes against a force 8 spirit.

[Jaid]

[Lord Ben]

Only thing I need is the ability to affect mages who materialize in the room and listen in or blab stuff. Or watcher spirits who do the same.

Spirits I can always kill with my street sam without issue.