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> Basic magic question, I feel like this should be obvious....
lorechaser
post Nov 27 2006, 04:10 PM
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1. It appears that I can cast a single spell, and split my dice pool in order to target multiple people. When doing this, does it count as casting the spell twice in terms of drain? I'm assuming not, but wanted to be sure.

2. It's been suggested that I could target the same person twice with the same spell, splitting pool. Is this true? If so, how is that not incredibly cheesy, and what's the justification for allowing it?



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Jaid
post Nov 27 2006, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
1. It appears that I can cast a single spell, and split my dice pool in order to target multiple people. When doing this, does it count as casting the spell twice in terms of drain? I'm assuming not, but wanted to be sure.

2. It's been suggested that I could target the same person twice with the same spell, splitting pool. Is this true? If so, how is that not incredibly cheesy, and what's the justification for allowing it?

1) yes, you can, and as a matter of fact it does double the drain.

2) yes, it is possible, and it is not cheesy because it costs double drain, allows them double the number of total resistance dice, and they have a much improved chance of fully resisting each individual bolt.

frankly, if you want multiple targets in a single IP, and for whatever reason can't use AOE, i would recommend you use a gun. SA or BF modes allow targetting individually, and are simple actions allowing two targets for good damage. FA mode allows you to target up to three people in a complex action, provided they are standing close. unfortunately, i don't think SR4 has the bit about being able to walk between targets without firing bullets if you have a smartlink (or at least, not yet... or maybe i just haven't noticed it) so this isn't such a great option either. other options include dual wielding guns with SA or BF modes of fire (allowing up to 4 separate attacks with 2 simple actions, though it naturally uses up more bullets and makes it much easier for them to dodge and whatnot)
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Butterblume
post Nov 27 2006, 04:47 PM
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1) Yes, you have to resist the drain multiple times, depending on how often you cast the spell. Plus, for each additional spell the drain increases by 1. So, if you cast on three targets simultaneously, you have to resist (drain+2) thrice.

2) I don't remember anything preventing it.

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lorechaser
post Nov 27 2006, 07:48 PM
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Well there ya go.

Double the drain is a more reasonable penalty (it's early, and I only slept 3 hours thanks to my four month old, so I should realized that would be the default).

But it really seems like, even with double resistance, you'll often be better off doublecasting (yeah, yeah, I'm an FF wonk) as long as the drain isn't heinous.

Let's assume casting against will 3.

Magic of 4, spellcasting of 5, 3 points from various sources (spec, foci, etc). That's a good but not great mage.

That's 12 dice to roll. Casting Force 4. So you're looking at about 3 net successes against will 3, so DV 7.

Or roll 6 and 6 - you're looking at 1 net success, or DV 5x2. Since you don't resist, depending on your confidence, that might be a much better option.

When you get to higher power scales, that seems to grow more pronounced.

Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, spec, power foci 2, spellcasting foci 2, mentor spirit. Possibly assisted by a spirit, but that's a bit much. ;)

That's 20 dice. Splitting, 10 dice per pool. If you're overcasting, and think you can handle the drain, even better.

Hmmmm.

Just rambling, really. And creating new character concepts, of course. ;) I wonder if my GM would accept a specialization in "Doublecasting"
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Fortune
post Nov 27 2006, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
I wonder if my GM would accept a specialization in "Doublecasting"

Just take 'Combat Spells', since that is basically all you'll be multi-casting. ;)
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lorechaser
post Nov 27 2006, 08:58 PM
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Nah - Turn to Goo is manipulation. Gotta push the envelope. ;)

Course, Turn to Goo is a poster child for "spells you don't want to doublecast" so that's not really an issue.

I wonder if I can get someone that can reasonably dual wield mono-filament whips too. Hmmmm.
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krayola red
post Nov 27 2006, 09:03 PM
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Eh, I don't really see a problem. If your dice pool is so much higher than your target's that doublecasting becomes a viable option, he's pretty much toast anyway. You'll start to see your spells fizzling when you employ the same strategy against someone protected by a good counterspeller.
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lorechaser
post Nov 27 2006, 11:47 PM
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Indeed. That's why you also dual wield mono-filament whips. ;)

I've now made a new character named Dwombat (He was going to be Wombat, as in Combat Wombat, but he's a dwarf, so....). He's a two trick pony. His tricks are doublecasting Stunbolt/Manabolt and dual-wielding Monofilament whips.

It amuses me greatly. Against a skilled foe in melee or magic, he has to just use single casts/attacks, and then he's got a dice pool of 14ish. Against people weak against one or the other, he can double up, and make with the hurting.

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hyzmarca
post Nov 28 2006, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
Indeed. That's why you also dual wield mono-filament whips. ;)

I've now made a new character named Dwombat (He was going to be Wombat, as in Combat Wombat, but he's a dwarf, so....). He's a two trick pony. His tricks are doublecasting Stunbolt/Manabolt and dual-wielding Monofilament whips.

It amuses me greatly. Against a skilled foe in melee or magic, he has to just use single casts/attacks, and then he's got a dice pool of 14ish. Against people weak against one or the other, he can double up, and make with the hurting.

Please post his character sheet for us. :love:



Screw doublecasting. You can tripplecast! And you can do it with area combat spells. And it doesn't have to be the same spell, either. Go! Fireball+Ball Lightening+Toxic Wave.

And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.
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Fortune
post Nov 28 2006, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

... and take ridiculously insane amounts of Drain. :D
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Drtyrm
post Nov 28 2006, 03:05 AM
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Here's a basic question I could use an answer to, concerning Ongoing Effects.

SR4, p. 174
"While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the magician's magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a -2 dice penalty on all other tests." (emphasis mine)

I read that as -2 on all tests, magical or otherwise. The first sentence tho, sort of suggests magical tests only. Opinions?

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Cold-Dragon
post Nov 28 2006, 06:27 AM
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No, the concentration penalty applies to all things except resistance tests (and possibly dodge tests). It's because you have to keep the mental loop in your brain that says 'and don't let this go'.

So how easy would it be for you to try and look up the password for the door in front of you while sustaining 3 phys barriers with a barrage of bullets slowly eating through it? Not very easy. That's what the -2 per test ultimately means. It's not a big deal to sustain one or two and just auto succeed things you're good at for the story.

Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Fortunately, drain tests DO NOT split dice - so in some cases, you can actually get extra kick in some spells without too much payback, but that is probably in guarantee'd cases more than anything.
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Jaid
post Nov 28 2006, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Fortunately, drain tests DO NOT split dice - so in some cases, you can actually get extra kick in some spells without too much payback, but that is probably in guarantee'd cases more than anything.

eh, no, the post after my first one mentions it. though i believe it gives the figure of +1 per additional spell.

i didn't feel the need to point it out again, but i suppose if it is indeed +2 then it did need it (never felt the need to doublecast, so i haven't looked it up yet... )
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Fortune
post Nov 28 2006, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Nov 28 2006, 05:27 PM)
Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Each extra Spell adds +1 to all the Drain tests. For example, if you cast 2 manabolts at Force 6, the Drain tests for each Spell at a DV of 4 (3 + 1). If you were to cast 3 of the same Spell as above, then each Drain test would have a DV of 5 (3 + 2), and so on ...
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Butterblume
post Nov 28 2006, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

There is, it's limited by your spellcasting skill (says so in the BBB).

I kinda assumed you had to cast the same spell multiple times, but hyzmarca seems to be right, that you can indeed multicastcast different spells.
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Grinder
post Nov 28 2006, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

Do you have a page reference for this? And was it possible in earlier editions?

God, I played mages/shamans for a long time in SR2 and SR3, but I never even thought about that possibility.
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Fortune
post Nov 28 2006, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (SR4-pg. 173)
The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.


You could multi-cast in every edition of Shadowrun, but it seems a little more effective in SR4.
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Grinder
post Nov 28 2006, 12:46 PM
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I should have read the rules more carefully, it seems.
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lorechaser
post Nov 28 2006, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 27 2006, 07:28 PM)
Please post his character sheet for us. :love:

Keep in mind, I made this in about 20 minutes at work, but I think it's pretty solid within his realm of expertise (combat). He has skill wires, so other abilities can be added as needed. ;)

I haven't looked up specifically what effects add to the pool, and what don't, so I'm not 100% sure on how the split comes out.

To be fully twinked out, he'd be an Ork, but the style required a dwarf, I think.

I'm also a little unclear on whether fetish are foci for the purposes of max number of bonded/activated foci. If so, he'd need to swap int for logic.

[ Spoiler ]


Feel free to rip him apart and point out flaws in my reasoning!
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Butterblume
post Nov 28 2006, 04:14 PM
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I am pretty sure the boni are added before splitting the pool. Would wreak havoc with balance otherwise, when multicasting 6 spells, for example ...
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lorechaser
post Nov 28 2006, 04:57 PM
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You'd think.

But apparently weapon foci are added on after, as are a few other little benefits....
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Mistwalker
post Nov 28 2006, 06:08 PM
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You might also want to add wreck gun to your spell list if your going to be multi-casting. Could be a nasty surprise for the opponents to find their guns broken and a dual monofilament whip wielding dwarf advancing on them (preferably laughing maniacally).
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Butterblume
post Nov 28 2006, 06:20 PM
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The dwarf needs a cyberarm, that holds his tankard of ale, so he can take sips while slicing the enemy into gyros laughing maniacally.

Well, at least a levitate spell for the tankard, since he is a magician.
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lorechaser
post Nov 28 2006, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
You might also want to add wreck gun to your spell list if your going to be multi-casting. Could be a nasty surprise for the opponents to find their guns broken and a dual monofilament whip wielding dwarf advancing on them (preferably laughing maniacally).

Oh, the maniacal laughter is compulsory.

I'll check that spell out. It would cover the "gotta hide from guns" angle nicely.
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Mistwalker
post Nov 28 2006, 06:29 PM
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Wreck gun is the single version of the spell

Demolish gun is the area. One of the mages in my players group has it, and so far, has had to replace something like 4 guns from teammates. :D . Well, that should be teammate, cause it always seems to be the same one, so much so that the gun bunny has now started an inventory of them, just in case.
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