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lorechaser
1. It appears that I can cast a single spell, and split my dice pool in order to target multiple people. When doing this, does it count as casting the spell twice in terms of drain? I'm assuming not, but wanted to be sure.

2. It's been suggested that I could target the same person twice with the same spell, splitting pool. Is this true? If so, how is that not incredibly cheesy, and what's the justification for allowing it?



Jaid
QUOTE (lorechaser)
1. It appears that I can cast a single spell, and split my dice pool in order to target multiple people. When doing this, does it count as casting the spell twice in terms of drain? I'm assuming not, but wanted to be sure.

2. It's been suggested that I could target the same person twice with the same spell, splitting pool. Is this true? If so, how is that not incredibly cheesy, and what's the justification for allowing it?

1) yes, you can, and as a matter of fact it does double the drain.

2) yes, it is possible, and it is not cheesy because it costs double drain, allows them double the number of total resistance dice, and they have a much improved chance of fully resisting each individual bolt.

frankly, if you want multiple targets in a single IP, and for whatever reason can't use AOE, i would recommend you use a gun. SA or BF modes allow targetting individually, and are simple actions allowing two targets for good damage. FA mode allows you to target up to three people in a complex action, provided they are standing close. unfortunately, i don't think SR4 has the bit about being able to walk between targets without firing bullets if you have a smartlink (or at least, not yet... or maybe i just haven't noticed it) so this isn't such a great option either. other options include dual wielding guns with SA or BF modes of fire (allowing up to 4 separate attacks with 2 simple actions, though it naturally uses up more bullets and makes it much easier for them to dodge and whatnot)
Butterblume
1) Yes, you have to resist the drain multiple times, depending on how often you cast the spell. Plus, for each additional spell the drain increases by 1. So, if you cast on three targets simultaneously, you have to resist (drain+2) thrice.

2) I don't remember anything preventing it.

lorechaser
Well there ya go.

Double the drain is a more reasonable penalty (it's early, and I only slept 3 hours thanks to my four month old, so I should realized that would be the default).

But it really seems like, even with double resistance, you'll often be better off doublecasting (yeah, yeah, I'm an FF wonk) as long as the drain isn't heinous.

Let's assume casting against will 3.

Magic of 4, spellcasting of 5, 3 points from various sources (spec, foci, etc). That's a good but not great mage.

That's 12 dice to roll. Casting Force 4. So you're looking at about 3 net successes against will 3, so DV 7.

Or roll 6 and 6 - you're looking at 1 net success, or DV 5x2. Since you don't resist, depending on your confidence, that might be a much better option.

When you get to higher power scales, that seems to grow more pronounced.

Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, spec, power foci 2, spellcasting foci 2, mentor spirit. Possibly assisted by a spirit, but that's a bit much. wink.gif

That's 20 dice. Splitting, 10 dice per pool. If you're overcasting, and think you can handle the drain, even better.

Hmmmm.

Just rambling, really. And creating new character concepts, of course. wink.gif I wonder if my GM would accept a specialization in "Doublecasting"
Fortune
QUOTE (lorechaser)
I wonder if my GM would accept a specialization in "Doublecasting"

Just take 'Combat Spells', since that is basically all you'll be multi-casting. wink.gif
lorechaser
Nah - Turn to Goo is manipulation. Gotta push the envelope. wink.gif

Course, Turn to Goo is a poster child for "spells you don't want to doublecast" so that's not really an issue.

I wonder if I can get someone that can reasonably dual wield mono-filament whips too. Hmmmm.
krayola red
Eh, I don't really see a problem. If your dice pool is so much higher than your target's that doublecasting becomes a viable option, he's pretty much toast anyway. You'll start to see your spells fizzling when you employ the same strategy against someone protected by a good counterspeller.
lorechaser
Indeed. That's why you also dual wield mono-filament whips. wink.gif

I've now made a new character named Dwombat (He was going to be Wombat, as in Combat Wombat, but he's a dwarf, so....). He's a two trick pony. His tricks are doublecasting Stunbolt/Manabolt and dual-wielding Monofilament whips.

It amuses me greatly. Against a skilled foe in melee or magic, he has to just use single casts/attacks, and then he's got a dice pool of 14ish. Against people weak against one or the other, he can double up, and make with the hurting.

hyzmarca
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Indeed. That's why you also dual wield mono-filament whips. wink.gif

I've now made a new character named Dwombat (He was going to be Wombat, as in Combat Wombat, but he's a dwarf, so....). He's a two trick pony. His tricks are doublecasting Stunbolt/Manabolt and dual-wielding Monofilament whips.

It amuses me greatly. Against a skilled foe in melee or magic, he has to just use single casts/attacks, and then he's got a dice pool of 14ish. Against people weak against one or the other, he can double up, and make with the hurting.

Please post his character sheet for us. love.gif



Screw doublecasting. You can tripplecast! And you can do it with area combat spells. And it doesn't have to be the same spell, either. Go! Fireball+Ball Lightening+Toxic Wave.

And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

... and take ridiculously insane amounts of Drain. biggrin.gif
Drtyrm
Here's a basic question I could use an answer to, concerning Ongoing Effects.

SR4, p. 174
"While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the magician's magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a -2 dice penalty on all other tests." (emphasis mine)

I read that as -2 on all tests, magical or otherwise. The first sentence tho, sort of suggests magical tests only. Opinions?

Cold-Dragon
No, the concentration penalty applies to all things except resistance tests (and possibly dodge tests). It's because you have to keep the mental loop in your brain that says 'and don't let this go'.

So how easy would it be for you to try and look up the password for the door in front of you while sustaining 3 phys barriers with a barrage of bullets slowly eating through it? Not very easy. That's what the -2 per test ultimately means. It's not a big deal to sustain one or two and just auto succeed things you're good at for the story.

Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Fortunately, drain tests DO NOT split dice - so in some cases, you can actually get extra kick in some spells without too much payback, but that is probably in guarantee'd cases more than anything.
Jaid
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Fortunately, drain tests DO NOT split dice - so in some cases, you can actually get extra kick in some spells without too much payback, but that is probably in guarantee'd cases more than anything.

eh, no, the post after my first one mentions it. though i believe it gives the figure of +1 per additional spell.

i didn't feel the need to point it out again, but i suppose if it is indeed +2 then it did need it (never felt the need to doublecast, so i haven't looked it up yet... )
Fortune
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Nov 28 2006, 05:27 PM)
Now, as per drain with multi-casting, I think everyone forgot to include the additional +2 to drain per extra spell also involved with drain. I don't recall if you can limit the effects (1st spell has normal drain, 2nd normal +2, 3rd normal +4) or if it stacks on all automatically (each spell is norm +2 or 4 or whatever). I think it's the 2nd one, however.

Each extra Spell adds +1 to all the Drain tests. For example, if you cast 2 manabolts at Force 6, the Drain tests for each Spell at a DV of 4 (3 + 1). If you were to cast 3 of the same Spell as above, then each Drain test would have a DV of 5 (3 + 2), and so on ...
Butterblume
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

There is, it's limited by your spellcasting skill (says so in the BBB).

I kinda assumed you had to cast the same spell multiple times, but hyzmarca seems to be right, that you can indeed multicastcast different spells.
Grinder
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And I'm serious. There has never been a limit to the number of spells that you can cast as a single action as long as you are willing to split pools.

Do you have a page reference for this? And was it possible in earlier editions?

God, I played mages/shamans for a long time in SR2 and SR3, but I never even thought about that possibility.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4-pg. 173)
The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.


You could multi-cast in every edition of Shadowrun, but it seems a little more effective in SR4.
Grinder
I should have read the rules more carefully, it seems.
lorechaser
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 27 2006, 07:28 PM)
Please post his character sheet for us. love.gif

Keep in mind, I made this in about 20 minutes at work, but I think it's pretty solid within his realm of expertise (combat). He has skill wires, so other abilities can be added as needed. wink.gif

I haven't looked up specifically what effects add to the pool, and what don't, so I'm not 100% sure on how the split comes out.

To be fully twinked out, he'd be an Ork, but the style required a dwarf, I think.

I'm also a little unclear on whether fetish are foci for the purposes of max number of bonded/activated foci. If so, he'd need to swap int for logic.

[ Spoiler ]


Feel free to rip him apart and point out flaws in my reasoning!
Butterblume
I am pretty sure the boni are added before splitting the pool. Would wreak havoc with balance otherwise, when multicasting 6 spells, for example ...
lorechaser
You'd think.

But apparently weapon foci are added on after, as are a few other little benefits....
Mistwalker
You might also want to add wreck gun to your spell list if your going to be multi-casting. Could be a nasty surprise for the opponents to find their guns broken and a dual monofilament whip wielding dwarf advancing on them (preferably laughing maniacally).
Butterblume
The dwarf needs a cyberarm, that holds his tankard of ale, so he can take sips while slicing the enemy into gyros laughing maniacally.

Well, at least a levitate spell for the tankard, since he is a magician.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
You might also want to add wreck gun to your spell list if your going to be multi-casting. Could be a nasty surprise for the opponents to find their guns broken and a dual monofilament whip wielding dwarf advancing on them (preferably laughing maniacally).

Oh, the maniacal laughter is compulsory.

I'll check that spell out. It would cover the "gotta hide from guns" angle nicely.
Mistwalker
Wreck gun is the single version of the spell

Demolish gun is the area. One of the mages in my players group has it, and so far, has had to replace something like 4 guns from teammates. biggrin.gif . Well, that should be teammate, cause it always seems to be the same one, so much so that the gun bunny has now started an inventory of them, just in case.
krayola red
Actually, Increase Reflexes doesn't add to Reaction at all. Without a Dodge or Gymnastics skill, he's pretty much mincemeat if he comes up against a decent gunslinger.
lorechaser
QUOTE (krayola red)
Actually, Increase Reflexes doesn't add to Reaction at all. Without a Dodge or Gymnastics skill, he's pretty much mincemeat if he comes up against a decent gunslinger.

Apparently it doesn't - that actually makes me feel good in general.

But yeah, magesight goggles are going to be his friend against a gunslinger. But no more so than most any mage - he wouldn't be using his full dodge much anyway.
Glyph
QUOTE (lorechaser)
You'd think.

But apparently weapon foci are added on after, as are a few other little benefits....

Where do you get this from? The only dice that get added or subtracted after the pool is split are situational modifiers. For weapon foci, all it says is that they add their Force is dice to the dice pool. So if you split the dice pool, you are doing it after you have added dice for weapon foci.

By the way, unlike SR3 with its ambidexterity rules, in SR4 there is no mechanical difference between attacking multiple targets with one monofilament whip, or attacking them with two. Presumably the person with two monofilament whips could split the dice pool to attack the same opponent twice, but you would have to house rule that to be the case - it is not in the rules.

Good to see a decent Edge on this guy - lots of would-be min-maxers neglect it, and it would probably help him to survive long enough to improve his Body and Reaction.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4-pg.141)
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.


As far as I know (and I am far from alone in this thinking) anything that adds dice to the Pool (as opposed to adding directly to the Skill or Attribute) is designated as a 'modifier'. Modifiers to the Dice Pool are added after the Pool is split.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (SR4-pg.141)
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.


As far as I know (and I am far from alone in this thinking) anything that adds dice to the Pool (as opposed to adding directly to the Skill or Attribute) is designated as a 'modifier'. Modifiers to the Dice Pool are added after the Pool is split.

That's the general reading I've seen too. If it adds to skill/attr it's split. If it adds to pool, it's not.

The magic rules specifically state you split your skill+attr, not your dice pool, for instance.

Edge is key for him - it's his catch all, and it's there in case he just manages to crit glitch.

As for weapon foci - if they aren't added first, then what if I'm dual wielding a katana in each hand, one is a weapon focus 4, one is a normal katana?

Do I add 4, then split? Add none? Add half to one? How does it work?

Fortune
As I added in another thread about this very same subject, keep in mind that all the negative modifiers also get added to each test with the split Pool. There are only a couple of positive modifiers that could apply to each situation, but there are far more negative modifiers that might be applicable.
Butterblume
Keep in mind that there are no rules about dualwielding melee weapons.

The only positive modifier when dualwielding guns is the smartgun/laserbonus, and is explicitly not applicable.

QUOTE (lorechaser)
the magic rules specifically state you split your skill+attr, not your dice pool, for instance.

The rules specifically state you split your your Magic+Spellcasting dice pool (for multicasting).
Fortune
QUOTE (Butterblume)
The only positive modifier when dualwielding guns is the smartgun/laserbonus ...

And Specialization ... and any other positive modifiers from the situation table. wink.gif
Moon-Hawk
Okay, I'm looking at the ranged combat modifiers table on pg 140. Positive modifiers are laser sight and smartlink, but we know those don't apply. There's also Aimed Shot and Tracer Rounds. Specialization isn't on that table, but we know about it. The only other bonus I can think of would be an AR bonus, which is sort of a nebulous bonus/penalty that the GM can potentially apply in any situation, but I think the smartlink sort of is the normal combat AR bonus.
Fortune
Let's agree to cover this in the other thread specifically dedicated to this topic, and leave this one for basic magic questions, as it is intended. smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
Yes, definitely. I got confused and thought it was the other thread.
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