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> Ultrasound sensor, stand-alone device?
Moon-Hawk
post Nov 27 2006, 04:12 PM
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Is the ultrasound sensor cyberware (pg 331, which points you to pg 324) a stand-alone device, or does the user need cybereyes or an image link or some sort of display device to work?
Thanks.
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Jaid
post Nov 27 2006, 04:26 PM
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well, it depends.

you don't *need* an image link to have it evidently (since it doesn't say you do) but without some method of senselink, the best you're going to be able to get realistically is that either there is something there, or there is not something there imo.
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Butterblume
post Nov 27 2006, 04:35 PM
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When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.
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Jaid
post Nov 27 2006, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (Butterblume)
When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.

the DNI in your cyberarm doesn't allow you to see with your hand.

the DNI in your datajack doesn't let you hear things through it.

the DNI in your internal commlink doesn't let you smell things inside your own head.

wearing a set of trodes subscribed to your gun doesn't let you feel what your gun is touching.

DNI does not provide sense links unless it says so. if you wish to connect the ultrasound to your visual perception, you require an image link in some way, shape, or form. this could be a pair of contacts, cybereyes, via simsense, or any number of other things... but without it, you cannot see through DNI. without a soundlink you can't hear through DNI. without a touchlink you can't feel through DNI. and so forth.

this is precisely what those particular items do... unless something specifically says it includes them (such as cybereyes for example, which include an image link) then it does not do the same thing.
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Butterblume
post Nov 27 2006, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Nov 27 2006, 11:35 AM)
When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.

the DNI in your cyberarm doesn't allow you to see with your hand.

No. Why should it? The cyberarm wouldn't be connected to the visual cortex.
QUOTE
the DNI in your datajack doesn't let you hear things through it.

It does, if you have a simsense module somewhere along the way.
QUOTE
the DNI in your internal commlink doesn't let you smell things inside your own head.

So, what does your brain smells like, and why would you want to take a sniff all the time? On the other hand, if you had an olfactory booster, it most likely would be wired per DNI to the part of the brain corresponding to smell.

QUOTE
wearing a set of trodes subscribed to your gun doesn't let you feel what your gun is touching.

Hm, what lets you feel what your gun is touching? And why?

QUOTE
DNI does not provide sense links unless it says so. if you wish to connect the ultrasound to your visual perception, you require an image link in some way, shape, or form.
[...]
this is precisely what those particular items do... unless something specifically says it includes them (such as cybereyes for example, which include an image link) then it does not do the same thing.

If I remember correctly, you could just add lowlight vision to your natural eyes and they would work, even without imagelink. Possible explanation: Direct Neural Interface.
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Jaid
post Nov 27 2006, 05:29 PM
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ultrasound is not eyeware. it's headware. it falls into the same category as datajacks, internal commlinks, and such, not low-light vision mods to your eyes.

it does not say it includes a sim module, therefore it does not.

it does not say it includes an image link, therefore it does not.

the DNI lets you turn it on or off, and communicate with it in much the same way as a DNI would let you communicate with a cyberarm or an internal commlink. if you wish to be able to see what it "sees" then you must have that functionality added in (which i'm sure most people would do). without either a simsense device (which can translate code into data usable by our brains) or a senselink (which can convert code into information usable by a specific part of our brains) that's all you get.

since the ultrasound scanner does not say "complete with image link or sim module" it does not come with one.

as far as why anyone would bother having an ultrasound scanner without the equipment to get a clear idea of what it is perceiving, i don't know. i'm sure there could be some situation where it would be desireable, though i don't know what it might be. simple fact is, that's how it works. you don't get free image link in your ultrasound scanner, you don't get a free sim module in your ultrasound scanner. when you buy the scanner, you get just that: the scanner.
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Butterblume
post Nov 27 2006, 05:49 PM
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The olfactory booster is also headware, and is basically stand-alone (alltough for some the enhanced options like recording and playing back smell I would request something like a display. I can't imagine another way how to control it).

I'll wait and see what the others have to say ;).
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Fortune
post Nov 27 2006, 06:53 PM
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I want to know exactly why the Ultrasound Scanner is not considered eye or ear (or even both) ware.
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Butterblume
post Nov 27 2006, 07:13 PM
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Because it's listed under headware, not eyeware or earware :D.

(of course it would make sense to build the receiver into the ears...)
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Teulisch
post Nov 27 2006, 07:21 PM
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in earlier editions, ultrasound was an eye enhancement- but it was also a % cheaper if yopu ALSO had high-frequency hearing. So while it was eye-ware, it could be combined eye-ear ware.

the new listing as headware is fairly straightforward, but a bit odd as such changes go. high and low frequency hearing are both gone now. and the exact rules for ultrasound have changed.

in 3e, it cut penalties to vision in half- which technicaly could mean an even lower penalty in total darkness with thermo+ultrasound. now it just gives a basic visibility, which is less complicated.

The thing which concerns me, is can the ultrasound sensor get bonuses from cyber ear or eye mods? theres no mention of what mods will help vs white noise.

personaly, i would just house-rule it as eyeware. its current ambiguity causes more confusion than it solves.
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Cheops
post Nov 27 2006, 07:25 PM
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The ultrasound sensor would make more sense in the earware category. I'm not a scientist but I seem to remember that dolphins and bats sense ultrasound by vibrations in their eardrums. Could be wrong.

That being said I don't think that ultrasound would provide a visual sense unless you had an image link. It's not that your brain doesn't receive DNI info from the ultrasound its just a matter that your brain isn't equipped to map out ultrasound visually. You'd be able to get used to it after a while if you ONLY use ultrasound and get used to "that vibration means that the object is that far away and shaped like that." If you want nifty sci-fi visual representations of things (like IR) then you'd need an image link.

Low light works because the cyber itself is designed to translate the data into a visual map. That's why its listed in the eyeware section and not the headware section.

To sum up: DNI only you get sensations of what's around you whereas DNI with Image Link you get visual map of ultrasound dectection around you.
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ShadowDragon
post Nov 27 2006, 07:34 PM
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I'm agreeing with Butterblume on this. Getting an ultrasound sensor implant is like adding another sense. You don't "see" it or "hear" it like you would with eyes or ears. While it's similar to both sight and hearing, it's independent of your other senses.
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 27 2006, 08:19 PM
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I think the book fully explains the ultra sound sensor.

QUOTE
a receiver pickes up the echoes of these [ultrasonic] pulses to create a topographic ultrasound "map" that is laid over (or replaces) the users's normal visual sensory input.
BBB, pp. 324, emphasis mine

It does this through an image link or other piece of gear; goggles, binoculars, scope.
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 27 2006, 08:20 PM
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Hmmm, I think I'm more with Cheops. You can't just add a sense. Your brain is not ready to handle that. If you added a sense in a small child they could learn to use it, but learning a new sense would take a long time. It's far easier to map the new sense onto an existing sense, such as converting heat into false color video, or mapping ultrasound into an image, or people implanting magnets under their skin so they can use their tactile sense to detect electromagnetics.
But adding a whole new sense? I don't think an adult brain is ready for that.
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 27 2006, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE
But adding a whole new sense? I don't think an adult brain is ready for that.


exactly. Ultrasound creates a wireframe image of the surroundings within it's LOS. This image can be progected onto a HUD, or to another piece of gear such as an image link.

As to the question of what type of implant the ultrasound system is; it's not an implant. It's a sensor enhancement that may be implanted the same way that a graple gun is a tool that may be implanted. Notice that; A. the ultrasound system is not available as an eyeware system, B. it is listed under headware but it has both an essence cost and a Capacity cost. You could put this thing in your head if you want, but you can also instal it in a cyberleg. Alternately you could just buy it as a sencor system and make it a node in your PAN.
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Mistwalker
post Nov 28 2006, 12:21 PM
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I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.
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Jaid
post Nov 28 2006, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.

ironic, that.

he seems to agree that you need an image link.

seriously, it doesn't replace vision link. it doesn't replace the sim module. if it does not replace either of these two pieces of gear, then it can't duplicate their effects.

if you want that visual overlay, you have to have appropriate gear to see it.

as another example, a reality filter program generates images that you can see. but having DNI is not enough to see it; you need an image link.

your computer at home right now is sending all kinds of images to your computer screen. try removing the connecting between the two and see how much you can get out of the computer. it is still producing images (or probably is) but without the screen, it is not of any use to you.
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The Jopp
post Nov 28 2006, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
seriously, it doesn't replace vision link. it doesn't replace the sim module. if it does not replace either of these two pieces of gear, then it can't duplicate their effects.

if you want that visual overlay, you have to have appropriate gear to see it.

I would say NO. It connects through a DNI to your vision center to create an overlay unto your normal field of vision.

The same can be said about Thermographic vision and Low-Light that has been installed in your flesh eye instead of cybereye.

The Thermo and lowlight is probably connected to the optical nerve and so would the output of the ultrasound sensor be as well.

Still, I find it a moot point if you have cybereyes anyway, they already come installed with imagelink.
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Mistwalker
post Nov 28 2006, 02:23 PM
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True

I don't know of anyone who has had ultrasound installed who hasn't also had cybereyes.
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Jaid
post Nov 29 2006, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
I would say NO. It connects through a DNI to your vision center to create an overlay unto your normal field of vision.

DNI does not transform machine data into human brain data.


if you wish to turn machine data into human brain data, you need simsense. that's kinda what the sim module does. alternately, you can just let the machine talk to another machine (ie image link). but without one of those two things, you're not going to be experiencing machine input as visual input.
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 29 2006, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.

HOW in the world does the quote from the book clinch that for you? That quote is from page 324. the section is GEAR. The ultrasound system is listed right under the IMAGE LINK GEAR where it says;
QUOTE
the immage link either displays fisual information (text, pictures, movies) in the field of vision or progects it on to the user's retina with a laser
bbb, pp, 323 (Right above the picture of GOGGLES). emphasis mine

The image link is not DNI it doesn't need to be. It just connects to the pan. An image link is not cyberware--though it can be--the same way an ultrasound system is not cyberware--though it can be.

If you have an ultrasound system installed in your head, in your cyber foot, or simply have the gear stuffed up... I mean, down your pants. It works the same way. It takes the echos of ultrasound from the emitor and translates them to a 3d wire frame with some limited texture effects, You may have this information transmited to another device. this might be a flat screen, a pair of goggles or an image link. You could have it transmited to your datajack, your trodes, or a dedicated DNI if you want but there's NOTHING you can do with it there but turn it to a VR feed.

Why would you do that?

Finaly; implanted or not, you need three things to use ultrasound;
the system,
a network of any type,
and the Display.

Any other system is simply a poorly concieved house rule that opens the door to the darkness of immencely powerful DNI catch all.

We have rules because we need limitations. Anything else is just Cowboys & Indians with Finger Bullets.
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Prime Mover
post Dec 17 2006, 02:49 PM
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Ok heres some observations.

Original Ultrasound device was in SS catalog, was weapon accesory or goggle.

Sight 1,300
Goggels 1,100

Original Ultrasound implant

Ultrasound vision 10,000 .5 ess

4th edition

Contacts with Ultrasound 1,050

Anywere? implant listed under headware
Ultrasound sensor 6,000 (this is no longer eye enhancement but uses same rules as eye ehancement for cotnacts,goggles etc...)

Street Sami say's " Why cant I find some tech to tear apart cheap pair of contacts and install me some 1k ultrasound in my eyes as opposed to spending 6k for same thing?"

Would be possible to install a contact mod on a cyber eye, perhaps even under a protective cover avoiding further essence loss?

My only guess is missing somthing or somthing is missing from descriptions, read posts here and still doesnt explain huge cost difference, older versions had bonus's with hearing mods, really hopeing to see something official on this, no luck with faq or current errata.

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ixombie
post Dec 17 2006, 03:14 PM
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The huge cost difference? Maybe because the cyber requires brain surgery. Remember that even though there are no more separate surgery rules (and if they don't keep it that way, I will be PISSED) implants still need to be implanted.

You can't tear ultrasound mods out of contacts anymore than you could remove parts of a commlink which has been woven into a jacket. These kinds of ultra small tech are built directly into the material of the item by nanotech and become an integral structural part. There's no real way to take them out without destroying them.
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Mikado
post Dec 17 2006, 03:56 PM
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I don't see why you would need anything else to make these work... Does it say under its description that it need to be hooked up to anything else in order to work? Does any of the cyber say it needs to be hooked up to anything else? I don't have my book in front of me but the only thing that comes to mind would be retinal duplication. Why would you think that this device would need further modifications if nothing else really does?

Bullets don't say they come with the casing, primer, powder; technically the whole thing together is called a cartridge. Electronics don't say they come with batteries! We just assume when they write these things in the book its the whole thing and we don't need to get anything else.
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BlueRondo
post Dec 17 2006, 04:35 PM
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I would argue that the ultrasound sensor works as a stand-alone device. Though it is called a "sensor," I don't think that it's just a sensor. After all, if it was simply a sensor, it wouldn't necessarily be headware - it could be installed anywhere in your body and could relay information wirelessly to your goggles or whatnot. The fact that it's headware implies that it's not just a sensor that sends information to another device (goggles, commlink, etc.), but rather it sends information directly into your brain. The sensor receives ultrasound waves, and the hardware in the implant is designed specifically to translate that information into visual information that can be interpreted by the brain. You're not really gaining a new "sense," because the information from the sensor is being translated into visual information. Rather, you're simply gaining a new way of acquiring visual data. (By the way, aren't there drugs that mess up your brain so that your senses get mixed up? For example, audio or tactile sensations get confused as visual information? I would argue that's the basis on which the implant works.)

Now, Jaid is arguing that "DNI does not transform machine data into human brain data." I disagree; if that was the case, how would cybereyes or cyberears work? They are machines that pick up information, and their hardware translates the information so that it is understandable by the brain. And though you can't see with your cyberarm (because it's not connected to any visual parts of the brain) you can feel with your cyberarm, can't you?
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