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Moon-Hawk
Is the ultrasound sensor cyberware (pg 331, which points you to pg 324) a stand-alone device, or does the user need cybereyes or an image link or some sort of display device to work?
Thanks.
Jaid
well, it depends.

you don't *need* an image link to have it evidently (since it doesn't say you do) but without some method of senselink, the best you're going to be able to get realistically is that either there is something there, or there is not something there imo.
Butterblume
When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.
Jaid
QUOTE (Butterblume)
When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.

the DNI in your cyberarm doesn't allow you to see with your hand.

the DNI in your datajack doesn't let you hear things through it.

the DNI in your internal commlink doesn't let you smell things inside your own head.

wearing a set of trodes subscribed to your gun doesn't let you feel what your gun is touching.

DNI does not provide sense links unless it says so. if you wish to connect the ultrasound to your visual perception, you require an image link in some way, shape, or form. this could be a pair of contacts, cybereyes, via simsense, or any number of other things... but without it, you cannot see through DNI. without a soundlink you can't hear through DNI. without a touchlink you can't feel through DNI. and so forth.

this is precisely what those particular items do... unless something specifically says it includes them (such as cybereyes for example, which include an image link) then it does not do the same thing.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Nov 27 2006, 11:35 AM)
When talking about the cyberware version, I think it's directly wired to the visual cortex. After all, that is what the Direct Neural Interface part in DNI is about.

the DNI in your cyberarm doesn't allow you to see with your hand.

No. Why should it? The cyberarm wouldn't be connected to the visual cortex.
QUOTE
the DNI in your datajack doesn't let you hear things through it.

It does, if you have a simsense module somewhere along the way.
QUOTE
the DNI in your internal commlink doesn't let you smell things inside your own head.

So, what does your brain smells like, and why would you want to take a sniff all the time? On the other hand, if you had an olfactory booster, it most likely would be wired per DNI to the part of the brain corresponding to smell.

QUOTE
wearing a set of trodes subscribed to your gun doesn't let you feel what your gun is touching.

Hm, what lets you feel what your gun is touching? And why?

QUOTE
DNI does not provide sense links unless it says so. if you wish to connect the ultrasound to your visual perception, you require an image link in some way, shape, or form.
[...]
this is precisely what those particular items do... unless something specifically says it includes them (such as cybereyes for example, which include an image link) then it does not do the same thing.

If I remember correctly, you could just add lowlight vision to your natural eyes and they would work, even without imagelink. Possible explanation: Direct Neural Interface.
Jaid
ultrasound is not eyeware. it's headware. it falls into the same category as datajacks, internal commlinks, and such, not low-light vision mods to your eyes.

it does not say it includes a sim module, therefore it does not.

it does not say it includes an image link, therefore it does not.

the DNI lets you turn it on or off, and communicate with it in much the same way as a DNI would let you communicate with a cyberarm or an internal commlink. if you wish to be able to see what it "sees" then you must have that functionality added in (which i'm sure most people would do). without either a simsense device (which can translate code into data usable by our brains) or a senselink (which can convert code into information usable by a specific part of our brains) that's all you get.

since the ultrasound scanner does not say "complete with image link or sim module" it does not come with one.

as far as why anyone would bother having an ultrasound scanner without the equipment to get a clear idea of what it is perceiving, i don't know. i'm sure there could be some situation where it would be desireable, though i don't know what it might be. simple fact is, that's how it works. you don't get free image link in your ultrasound scanner, you don't get a free sim module in your ultrasound scanner. when you buy the scanner, you get just that: the scanner.
Butterblume
The olfactory booster is also headware, and is basically stand-alone (alltough for some the enhanced options like recording and playing back smell I would request something like a display. I can't imagine another way how to control it).

I'll wait and see what the others have to say wink.gif.
Fortune
I want to know exactly why the Ultrasound Scanner is not considered eye or ear (or even both) ware.
Butterblume
Because it's listed under headware, not eyeware or earware biggrin.gif.

(of course it would make sense to build the receiver into the ears...)
Teulisch
in earlier editions, ultrasound was an eye enhancement- but it was also a % cheaper if yopu ALSO had high-frequency hearing. So while it was eye-ware, it could be combined eye-ear ware.

the new listing as headware is fairly straightforward, but a bit odd as such changes go. high and low frequency hearing are both gone now. and the exact rules for ultrasound have changed.

in 3e, it cut penalties to vision in half- which technicaly could mean an even lower penalty in total darkness with thermo+ultrasound. now it just gives a basic visibility, which is less complicated.

The thing which concerns me, is can the ultrasound sensor get bonuses from cyber ear or eye mods? theres no mention of what mods will help vs white noise.

personaly, i would just house-rule it as eyeware. its current ambiguity causes more confusion than it solves.
Cheops
The ultrasound sensor would make more sense in the earware category. I'm not a scientist but I seem to remember that dolphins and bats sense ultrasound by vibrations in their eardrums. Could be wrong.

That being said I don't think that ultrasound would provide a visual sense unless you had an image link. It's not that your brain doesn't receive DNI info from the ultrasound its just a matter that your brain isn't equipped to map out ultrasound visually. You'd be able to get used to it after a while if you ONLY use ultrasound and get used to "that vibration means that the object is that far away and shaped like that." If you want nifty sci-fi visual representations of things (like IR) then you'd need an image link.

Low light works because the cyber itself is designed to translate the data into a visual map. That's why its listed in the eyeware section and not the headware section.

To sum up: DNI only you get sensations of what's around you whereas DNI with Image Link you get visual map of ultrasound dectection around you.
ShadowDragon
I'm agreeing with Butterblume on this. Getting an ultrasound sensor implant is like adding another sense. You don't "see" it or "hear" it like you would with eyes or ears. While it's similar to both sight and hearing, it's independent of your other senses.
OneTrikPony
I think the book fully explains the ultra sound sensor.

QUOTE
a receiver pickes up the echoes of these [ultrasonic] pulses to create a topographic ultrasound "map" that is laid over (or replaces) the users's normal visual sensory input.
BBB, pp. 324, emphasis mine

It does this through an image link or other piece of gear; goggles, binoculars, scope.
Moon-Hawk
Hmmm, I think I'm more with Cheops. You can't just add a sense. Your brain is not ready to handle that. If you added a sense in a small child they could learn to use it, but learning a new sense would take a long time. It's far easier to map the new sense onto an existing sense, such as converting heat into false color video, or mapping ultrasound into an image, or people implanting magnets under their skin so they can use their tactile sense to detect electromagnetics.
But adding a whole new sense? I don't think an adult brain is ready for that.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE
But adding a whole new sense? I don't think an adult brain is ready for that.


exactly. Ultrasound creates a wireframe image of the surroundings within it's LOS. This image can be progected onto a HUD, or to another piece of gear such as an image link.

As to the question of what type of implant the ultrasound system is; it's not an implant. It's a sensor enhancement that may be implanted the same way that a graple gun is a tool that may be implanted. Notice that; A. the ultrasound system is not available as an eyeware system, B. it is listed under headware but it has both an essence cost and a Capacity cost. You could put this thing in your head if you want, but you can also instal it in a cyberleg. Alternately you could just buy it as a sencor system and make it a node in your PAN.
Mistwalker
I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.
Jaid
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.

ironic, that.

he seems to agree that you need an image link.

seriously, it doesn't replace vision link. it doesn't replace the sim module. if it does not replace either of these two pieces of gear, then it can't duplicate their effects.

if you want that visual overlay, you have to have appropriate gear to see it.

as another example, a reality filter program generates images that you can see. but having DNI is not enough to see it; you need an image link.

your computer at home right now is sending all kinds of images to your computer screen. try removing the connecting between the two and see how much you can get out of the computer. it is still producing images (or probably is) but without the screen, it is not of any use to you.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Jaid)
seriously, it doesn't replace vision link. it doesn't replace the sim module. if it does not replace either of these two pieces of gear, then it can't duplicate their effects.

if you want that visual overlay, you have to have appropriate gear to see it.

I would say NO. It connects through a DNI to your vision center to create an overlay unto your normal field of vision.

The same can be said about Thermographic vision and Low-Light that has been installed in your flesh eye instead of cybereye.

The Thermo and lowlight is probably connected to the optical nerve and so would the output of the ultrasound sensor be as well.

Still, I find it a moot point if you have cybereyes anyway, they already come installed with imagelink.
Mistwalker
True

I don't know of anyone who has had ultrasound installed who hasn't also had cybereyes.
Jaid
QUOTE (The Jopp)
I would say NO. It connects through a DNI to your vision center to create an overlay unto your normal field of vision.

DNI does not transform machine data into human brain data.


if you wish to turn machine data into human brain data, you need simsense. that's kinda what the sim module does. alternately, you can just let the machine talk to another machine (ie image link). but without one of those two things, you're not going to be experiencing machine input as visual input.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I agree with butterblume, in that it connects to your vision centers. The reference that OneTrikPony provided clinches it for me.

HOW in the world does the quote from the book clinch that for you? That quote is from page 324. the section is GEAR. The ultrasound system is listed right under the IMAGE LINK GEAR where it says;
QUOTE
the immage link either displays fisual information (text, pictures, movies) in the field of vision or progects it on to the user's retina with a laser
bbb, pp, 323 (Right above the picture of GOGGLES). emphasis mine

The image link is not DNI it doesn't need to be. It just connects to the pan. An image link is not cyberware--though it can be--the same way an ultrasound system is not cyberware--though it can be.

If you have an ultrasound system installed in your head, in your cyber foot, or simply have the gear stuffed up... I mean, down your pants. It works the same way. It takes the echos of ultrasound from the emitor and translates them to a 3d wire frame with some limited texture effects, You may have this information transmited to another device. this might be a flat screen, a pair of goggles or an image link. You could have it transmited to your datajack, your trodes, or a dedicated DNI if you want but there's NOTHING you can do with it there but turn it to a VR feed.

Why would you do that?

Finaly; implanted or not, you need three things to use ultrasound;
the system,
a network of any type,
and the Display.

Any other system is simply a poorly concieved house rule that opens the door to the darkness of immencely powerful DNI catch all.

We have rules because we need limitations. Anything else is just Cowboys & Indians with Finger Bullets.
Prime Mover
Ok heres some observations.

Original Ultrasound device was in SS catalog, was weapon accesory or goggle.

Sight 1,300
Goggels 1,100

Original Ultrasound implant

Ultrasound vision 10,000 .5 ess

4th edition

Contacts with Ultrasound 1,050

Anywere? implant listed under headware
Ultrasound sensor 6,000 (this is no longer eye enhancement but uses same rules as eye ehancement for cotnacts,goggles etc...)

Street Sami say's " Why cant I find some tech to tear apart cheap pair of contacts and install me some 1k ultrasound in my eyes as opposed to spending 6k for same thing?"

Would be possible to install a contact mod on a cyber eye, perhaps even under a protective cover avoiding further essence loss?

My only guess is missing somthing or somthing is missing from descriptions, read posts here and still doesnt explain huge cost difference, older versions had bonus's with hearing mods, really hopeing to see something official on this, no luck with faq or current errata.

ixombie
The huge cost difference? Maybe because the cyber requires brain surgery. Remember that even though there are no more separate surgery rules (and if they don't keep it that way, I will be PISSED) implants still need to be implanted.

You can't tear ultrasound mods out of contacts anymore than you could remove parts of a commlink which has been woven into a jacket. These kinds of ultra small tech are built directly into the material of the item by nanotech and become an integral structural part. There's no real way to take them out without destroying them.
Mikado
I don't see why you would need anything else to make these work... Does it say under its description that it need to be hooked up to anything else in order to work? Does any of the cyber say it needs to be hooked up to anything else? I don't have my book in front of me but the only thing that comes to mind would be retinal duplication. Why would you think that this device would need further modifications if nothing else really does?

Bullets don't say they come with the casing, primer, powder; technically the whole thing together is called a cartridge. Electronics don't say they come with batteries! We just assume when they write these things in the book its the whole thing and we don't need to get anything else.
BlueRondo
I would argue that the ultrasound sensor works as a stand-alone device. Though it is called a "sensor," I don't think that it's just a sensor. After all, if it was simply a sensor, it wouldn't necessarily be headware - it could be installed anywhere in your body and could relay information wirelessly to your goggles or whatnot. The fact that it's headware implies that it's not just a sensor that sends information to another device (goggles, commlink, etc.), but rather it sends information directly into your brain. The sensor receives ultrasound waves, and the hardware in the implant is designed specifically to translate that information into visual information that can be interpreted by the brain. You're not really gaining a new "sense," because the information from the sensor is being translated into visual information. Rather, you're simply gaining a new way of acquiring visual data. (By the way, aren't there drugs that mess up your brain so that your senses get mixed up? For example, audio or tactile sensations get confused as visual information? I would argue that's the basis on which the implant works.)

Now, Jaid is arguing that "DNI does not transform machine data into human brain data." I disagree; if that was the case, how would cybereyes or cyberears work? They are machines that pick up information, and their hardware translates the information so that it is understandable by the brain. And though you can't see with your cyberarm (because it's not connected to any visual parts of the brain) you can feel with your cyberarm, can't you?
Lovesmasher
It's not a visual enhancement because the gear needed for ultrasound or echolocation needs to both broadcast and receive, unlike any other sensory enhancement (unless I'm missing one). It produces pulses of ultrasonic sound, they bounce off of things and then the reciever reads the incoming bounced sound and turns it into an undetailed image, either a grey texture map or a wireframe, depending on how you want to play it. The point is, you can't build it into your eye because it needs to broadcast a sound. Broadcasting sound from your eye seems unwise, especially if you ever wear glasses.
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Nov 28 2006, 07:02 PM)
DNI does not transform machine data into human brain data.


Actually, I would say that's about the simplest description of what it does.

Direct Neural Interface.

Allows Cyberware and Brain to directly communicate.

It basically translate brain electrical signal into data that the cyberware can use and the data the cyberware produce into data the brain can interpret.

What else do you need it for, otherwise? Just switching on and off? If the cyberware could produce data directly comprehensible by the brain and vice versa in the first place you could obviously get rid of DNI altogether since on/off is just more electrical communication between brain and machine, not fundamentally different from any other exchange of information that occurs between them.

Consider your vision : This is just your brain interpreting the info your eyes are sending. So you could very well have an ultrasound overlay on top of that natural vision if you had ultrasound cyberware sending additional data to the brain through DNI. Just more info. As long as the brain accept it, it's swell. It's all electrical signal anyway, you just have to make sure that the newer ones are intelligible to the brain and I've always figured that was the whole point of DNI.
Prime Mover
This little enhancement has caused more chaos in my game then anything else so far. willing to buy into any decent explaination dni or otherwise, what started whole thing was ultrasound in a contact, I ruled that emitter had to be outside source, so as to avoid the argument of whether or not you could still see through the eye emitting ultrasonics.

The groups sami wondered why he couldnt just wear a ultrasonic contact under a custom protective lense over a cyber eye therefore saveing himself some nuyen.

So gone back and forth on some ruleings and just wanted clarification on implant, sure if we had an official response its merely matter of a sentence or two of explaination or an easy fix.
Charon
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Dec 17 2006, 01:05 PM)
I ruled that emitter had to be outside source, so as to avoid  the argument of whether or not you could still see through the eye emitting ultrasonics.




Obviously it doesn't have to be since it can be implanted. The implant is clearly the emmiter itself and presumably allows your brain to interpret the results through DNI, though that doesn't seem universally accepted.

Personnally I think that's exactly what DNI is for ; translate the feedback from the Ultrasound emitter into something the brain understands and nowhere in the BBB does it say that the implant doesn't work on its own and require more parts.

QUOTE
  The groups sami wondered why he couldnt just wear a ultrasonic contact under a custom protective lense over a cyber eye therefore saveing himself some nuyen.


He can. That's what the vision enhancement section is about. Use goggles or whatever with the ultrasound enhancement and that's exactly what your Sammie would have.
Prime Mover
Let me run this by ya. Say your blinded spell or other means, vision ie eyes are of no use. Does the ultrasound implant still fuction does removing senses via spell affact eye or visual cortex so to speak?
Charon
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Dec 17 2006, 01:46 PM)
Let me run this by ya.  Say your blinded spell or other means, vision ie eyes are of no use.  Does the ultrasound implant still fuction does removing senses via spell affact eye or visual cortex so to speak?

That's a fun one : Ultrasound is, well, sound.

If someone is under the invisibility spell you can still see him through Ultrasound because invisibility explicitly affects the visual senses, not sound, as per the description. That much seem clear to me.

But OTOH it could be argued that the spell hush would make you invisible to ultrasound. That's how I would play it, anyway.
Jaid
*sigh*

whatever else you wish to argue (the dedicated sim module in the ultrasound being most likely of all proposed), DNI does NOT turn machine data into human brain data. hook your brain up to a commlink. what does that get you? the ability to give mental commands to the commlink. nothing more, nothing less. can you receive data from your commlink? absolutely. machine data. which your brain cannot interpret. but wait, you say, what about full VR? well, why don't we think about this... full VR requires... oh, hey, wait, a sim module... you know, a machine that can take machine data, turn it into human brain data, and send it to your brain. wow, how amazing!

as far as the "how come you can see with cyber eyes", well that's really easy. they come with a built in image link. what does the image link do? oh, that's right, it turns machine data into a visual image that the human brain can interpret (whether it be done by translating it to brain data or simply projecting visual data onto your eyes being irrelevant to this discussion).

if you wish to argue that the ultrasound sensor comes with the ability to use the full visual experience, then the only way to argue that point is if it comes with a dedicated simsense module (and a DNI, but it definitely has DNI no questions asked) or it comes with a free image link. we know it doesn't come with free image link, because otherwise it would say so. therefore, your only argument is that it comes with a dedicated sim module.

my personal opinion is that if it came with a dedicated sim module, it would say so. so under my interpretation, further equipment (equipment which you almost certainly have anyways if you're using ultrasound) is needed. if you wish to allow a free dedicated sim module in the ultrasound, that's your choice, and probably won't break your game. to be honest, i personally think the implanted sim module should be much more essence friendly than it is anyways.
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 09:22 PM)
my personal opinion is that if it came with a dedicated sim module, it would say so. so under my interpretation, further equipment (equipment which you almost certainly have anyways if you're using ultrasound) is needed. if you wish to allow a free dedicated sim module in the ultrasound, that's your choice, and probably won't break your game. to be honest, i personally think the implanted sim module should be much more essence friendly than it is anyways.

Funny how my interpretation requires no addition to the rules while yours require the acquisition of additional cyberware even though the book says nothing about it.
One would assume that the designers would have been explicit if it were the case.

Ever heard of Occam's razor?

QUOTE
as far as the "how come you can see with cyber eyes", well that's really easy. they come with a built in image link. what does the image link do? oh, that's right, it turns machine data into a visual image that the human brain can interpret (whether it be done by translating it to brain data or simply projecting visual data onto your eyes being irrelevant to this discussion).


And now you are just making stuff up. Image link can be purchased for goggles while on the other hand and you can have a cybereye without image link and wonder of wonder, you don't go blind.

It's just to allow you to display in your field of vision additional visual information from an outside source, usually your PAN. Like text, picture, movie. You know, what it says it does in the BBB on p.323.
Jaid
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 17 2006, 09:28 PM)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 09:22 PM)
if you wish to argue that the ultrasound sensor comes with the ability to use the full visual experience, then the only way to argue that point is if it comes with a dedicated simsense module (and a DNI, but it definitely has DNI no questions asked) or it comes with a free image link. we know it doesn't come with free image link, because otherwise it would say so. therefore, your only argument is that it comes with a dedicated sim module.

Funny how my interpretation requires no addition to the rules while yours require the acquisition of additional cyberware even though the book says nothing about it.
One would assume that the designers would have been explicit if it were the case.

Ever heard of Occam's razor?

funny how you quoted my statement of the only way a standalone ultrasound sensor could work... and informed me that my interpretation requires the addition of rules... when: 1) that's not MY interpretation. my interpretation is "you need a separate device" 2) your interpretation requires the equally made up rule of "DNI devices translate machine code into human brain code".

QUOTE

And now you are just making stuff up.  Image link can be purchased for goggles while on the other hand and you can have a cybereye without image link and wonder of wonder, you don't go blind. 

It's just to allow you to display in your field of vision additional visual information from an outside source, usually your PAN.  Like text, picture, movie.  You know, what it says it does in the BBB on p.323.

you are quite right about the goggles. you are completely wrong about the cybereyes, however. you can't have cybereyes with no image link. it comes built in, as part of the cost, because when you cut your eyes out and replace them with high tech cameras, you need a device to translate the machine code from those cameras into human brain code. same thing with cyberears and sound link. you can see with your cybereyes because they contain a built in image link, you can hear with your cyberears because they contain a built in sound link. if you wish to rule that an ultrasound sensor has a built in "ultrasound sensor link", then that's fine. like i said, it's hardly going to unbalance the game that you no longer have to buy an image link to use ultrasound to it's full potential. heck, for all i know the original intent was that the ultrasound sensor comes with such a device built in. i don't know. you don't know. we're both just guessing really, so neither of our opinions are more valid than the other on that issue.
BlueRondo
I don't think the Image Link is a vital part of a cybereye. Yes, it is included as part of the basic system, but so is the eye recording unit, and that isn't essential to making cybereyes work.

Additionally, I'm curious if you think you can't feel with a cyberarm unless you have Touch Link. As far as I know, touch link isn't included with cyberlimbs.
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 10:18 PM)
funny how you quoted my statement of the only way a standalone ultrasound sensor could work... and informed me that my interpretation requires the addition of rules... when: 1) that's not MY interpretation. my interpretation is "you need a separate device" 2) your interpretation requires the equally made up rule of "DNI devices translate machine code into human brain code".


Yep, I kept the wrong oart of the post when I quoted. Corrected.

Indded your interpretation is :"you need a separate device.

Which is what I was targeting when I said : Occam's razor. The designer would have been explicit if it were the case.

My interpretation requires no rules whatsoever. How the DNI work is pure fluff.

All the rules say is if you implant this cyberware is you get an implanted version of the Ultrasound vision enhancement.

I say you pay for the widget and you get ultrasound sight. You say that you need more unspecified widget that satisfy your vision of how cyberware works. Fine, but I'm sticking to what's in the rule.

QUOTE
you are quite right about the goggles. you are completely wrong about the cybereyes, however. you can't have cybereyes with no image link. it comes built in, as part of the cost, because when you cut your eyes out and replace them with high tech cameras, you need a device to translate the machine code from those cameras into human brain code.


And here we go again, more made up stuff.

QUOTE (P.332)
Image Link : An implanted version of the image link enhancement (see p.323)


And from that you go on a rampage of imagination over the purpose of an image link that is somehow different than that of a non cyber image link even though the rules says it's the same thing.

And then you comment on my use of DNI. Sheesh.
Charon
Let's go back to the sources.

Before we get augmentation, we only have the BBB and it doesn't say much about DNI.

So let's see what SR3's book on cyber said about DNI.

QUOTE (Man&Machine @ p.10)
Such items (Referring to complex cyber like cyberlimb and headware) require a direct neural interface (DNI), a translator that allows the device to interact with and be controlled by the brain.


And so yes, I'm now more certain than ever that having the ultrasound cyberware is enough to get ultrasound vision without the use of additional equipment.

Now they might decide on a flight of fancy to change it for SR4 but I'm willing to put good money on being vindicated by the time Augmentation comes out.
BlueRondo
Though I don't agree with it, I have a feeling that Jaid is going to counter that by saying DNI allows the brain to send information to the device, but it doesn't allow the device to send information to the brain.

As for why the technology could work one way and not the other, I don't know.
Glyph
Given that the smartlink specifically states "Requires an image link", and that the description for Ultrasound doesn't, I would agree with Charon's view that it is a fully functional stand-alone device.
Jaid
QUOTE (Charon)
Let's go back to the sources.

Before we get augmentation, we only have the BBB and it doesn't say much about DNI.

Let's see what SR3 said about DNI.

QUOTE (Man&Machine @ p.10)
Such items (Referring to complex cyber) require a direct neural interface (DNI), a translator that allows the device to interact with and be controlled by the brain.

sure. like i said, DNI translate's human brain data into machine data. that's what it does. this allows you to control a device, which is exactly what i said it does... allows you to send mental commands. you need simsense, however, to use your body's senses to understand wireless data. that's what simsense does. if you just hand that out for free to datajacks and trodes, then you end up with a situation where no one needs simsense modules ever. which is funny, because they are explicitly required for a lot of things.

of course, then again, SR3 said a lot of things that no longer apply in SR4. lots of terms have changed meanings. shamans can bind spirits. mages can summon elementals. you don't need a VCR to rig anymore. there's no longer any such thing as a remote deck. implanted smartlinks are no different from external ones. and so forth. and heck, if we want to go to SR3, i'm sure there's all kinds of conflicting rulings about more things than i care to think of. SR4 has some of those, too, and it's not even half as big as SR3 was.

on to your previous post, why would the designer have been explicit? is the designer supposed to be some sort of infallible perfected being incapable of making errors? perhaps they're supposed to be psychic and be able to know exactly how everything they write is going to be understood? or maybe they're supposed to be perfectly aware of every single word in the entire book, and incapable of failing to realise that the information in their head failed to get turned into words on the page? hate to break it to you, but the designers are humans, just like you and me. fully capable of errors, though they do their best.

furthermore, if you read my orginal post, i never said "ultrasound requires an image link to work", i said "ultrasound requires an image link to *see* it". because that's *exactly* what image links do. to give that capability to a DNI means you don't need an image link anymore. because after all, anything that can generate wireframe models in my vision can obviously place a targetting reticule and some numbers there. hey look, i don't need an image link to use a smarlink anymore, because i have DNI! and hey, anything that can put wireframes of real, physical objects in my vision, can obviously put wireframes of virtual objects in my vision too... hey, ain't that funny? i don't need an image link to see AR either, because i have a DNI! and wow, i can receive images from the wireless camera in my remotely piloted drone, and see everything it sees just fine, because anything that can place wireframe images of objects sensed by an implanted sensor can do the same thing with objects sensed by an external, drone mounted sensor just fine, so i don't need an image link for that either!

so, without an image link, your ultrasound sensor works. it will be limited as to what it can do. it can probably tell you whether something is there or not. it could probably be set to passive and it could probably tell you if there's ultrasound there or not (if you start getting gibberish through your DNI, you know something's happening). but can it take it's ultrasound information in machine data and transform that into a visual image useable by your brain? not without simsense it can't.

in any event, i'm getting way to worked up about this. i'm tired of slamming my head into the wall. we're just going to have to agree to disagree. and that's the last i'm going to bother saying, because i'm just wasting my time here.
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 11:10 PM)
On to your previous post, why would the designer have been explicit?

Oh, indeed why?

To avoid this.

And not only do they try to be as explicit as they can, they use errata and FAQ to clarify things. So far, statu quo for Ultrasound.

So if they don't say it requires it, it doesn't unless proven otherwise. Not the other way around.

And no, DNI that translates machine info into something the brain can understand and vice versa doesn't make image link irrelevant. DNI is just the translator between brain and machine. It's not the tool. Without the imagelink I can't for example receive info from my buddy's gun camera.
Mikado
I'm going to stick to my original assessment of this topic and say that all of the other cyber that requires additional equipment to use say they need additional equipment to use. Ultrasound sensor DOES NOT... There for it does NOT. If you want to choose to think that the writers are wrong or forgot to write it in the description that is YOUR choice.
xizor
I have to say, that I am most surprised by the amount of disagreement on this issue.
I think that it is fairily clear cut.

The image link, as gear
An image link, when used as part of a pair of glasses, does not display lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound.
What it does do is display movies, text, various AR data, someone else's standard, lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound video feed.
QUOTE
Image link: the image link either displays visual information (text, pictures, movies) in the field of vision or it projects it onto the user's retina with a laser. Visual data is typicaly AR data recieved by the user's PAN, but other input is also accepted. (page 323 SR4, the image link as gear)

Please note that none of the image enhancements list the image link as a requirement.
This can be proved by the possibility of having ultrasound goggles without an image link.


The image link, as cyber
An image link, when used as part of a cybereye, does not display lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound.
What it does do is display movies, text, various AR data, someone else's standard, lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound video feed.

QUOTE
Image link: an implanted version of the image link enhancement (see p. 323).  {page 332 SR4, the image link as cyber}
QUOTE
Image link: the image link either displays visual information (text, pictures, movies) in the field of vision or it projects it onto the user's retina with a laser. Visual data is typicaly AR data recieved by the user's PAN, but other input is also accepted. {page 323 SR4, the image link as gear}

Please note that none of the image enhancements list the image link as a requirement.

Therfore, the image link has nothing to do with vision enhancement, due to the image link not being a requirement for any vision enhancement.

What about the smart gun system I hear you ask.
Well, you do need an image link for that because the cross hairs + other data are being projected into your field of vision. This information comes from an outside source (i.e. gun) and has to be incoperated into your field of vision.

And why isnt the ultrasound sensor part of the cybereye or cyberear systems?
I don't know.
My guess is that it was not included in the cybereye system because it is not optical (it uses sound waves). And it was not included in the cyberear system because it has to generate a ping (continuous sonic pulse) when operating in active mode, and thats not what you want in the organ that listens for sounds.

Does the cybernetic ultrasound sensor generate a visual sensory output?
yes.
QUOTE

Ultra sound sensor: This is an implanted version of the ultrasound sensor (p. 324). {page 331,SR4} 
QUOTE
the ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a reciever that picks up the echos of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound "map" that is laid over (or replaces) the user's normal visual sensory input. {page 324, SR4}

Does it require the image link?
No.

that stuff is fairly clear to me, from what I have read in the SR4 book.

the DNI stuff I dont have any pirticular insight into, so I will not touch that issue.

PS. thanks for reading that long post smile.gif
Fortune
Seems about right to me.
Trigger
I would rule the Ultrasound system as a stand alone system because of the way I can see ultrasound being used. When used stand alone (it being headware..installed in your head) then you could turn it on active setting and receive the information in your head, meaning you could probably close your eyes and receive the image that is it creating, an ultrasound version of your surroundings. It is not visual, because ultrasound is not a visual field, it is mental, your mind creating a setting based on the information being put into it. It couldn't be visual very well anyways, because ultrasound works in 360 degrees and that could only be interpretted properly in a mental image, not a visual one. Also ultrasound in bats does not create vision for them, but simply mimics vison input with another sensor. Ultrasound is most likely only used when you can't see at all. And Ultrasound isn't audio either, it is picking up a frequency that your ears can't, hence why it is located as headware and not something you can put just anywhere, because it needs to be able to both project and receive signal from all around the body. Think Daredevil, as much as I dislike the film.... he doesn't see in ultrasound, he can't see, no he creates a mental image of his surroundings via the ultrasound input around him, using his ultrasound power to pick up vibrations with not just his ears but his entire body.

I could see ultrasound being used at a higher essence cost tp wire a sensor system to your body to pick up all vibrations around you.

Also I can see ultrasound being able to be linked to another device to allow you to use it at the same time as another sensor, such as your thermal vision and low light, using your PAN to overlay it all and create a super vision of sorts. But again, a PAN is not needed, since ultrasound is a mental imaging system. I actually wouldn't allow Ultrasound as PAN in a game of my own because as I said before, it works in 360 degrees and your PAN doesn't.
mfb
why in the world would the ultrasound sensor cyberimplant not be able to provide visual data to the brain? would possible purpose would it serve, if it can't do that? that's like selling a hammer, but making you buy the handle separately.

SR4, for better or for worse, was designed from the ground up to be simpler. given that, which sounds (hah!) more likely: a) that the devs messed up and forgot to add in that, oh yeah, the ultrasound sensor cyberimplant requires a sim module implant, or b) that the devs messed up and forgot to add in that the ultrasound sensor provides brain-readable visual data on its own? one of these options is simple, and makes sense. the other is complex, and makes no sense.

QUOTE (Trigger)
Also I can see ultrasound being able to be linked to another device to allow you to use it at the same time as another sensor, such as your thermal vision and low light, using your PAN to overlay it all and create a super vision of sorts.

you didn't need a PAN to do this in previous editions. again, given the move towards simplification, i doubt this has changed.
Matsu Kurisu
QUOTE
SR4 pg 332
Cybereyes: This system offers 20/20 vision for both
eyes and includes an image link and an eye recording unit
(for no extra cost), as well as capacity for various enhancement
systems.


Hi Guys

For accuracy, Cybereyes do INCLUDE an image link. See above.
Fortune
I don't think that was ever in question.
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