 Ultrasound sensor, stand-alone device? |
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 Dec 17 2006, 04:41 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Chicago, IL Member No.: 10,193  |
It's not a visual enhancement because the gear needed for ultrasound or echolocation needs to both broadcast and receive, unlike any other sensory enhancement (unless I'm missing one). It produces pulses of ultrasonic sound, they bounce off of things and then the reciever reads the incoming bounced sound and turns it into an undetailed image, either a grey texture map or a wireframe, depending on how you want to play it. The point is, you can't build it into your eye because it needs to broadcast a sound. Broadcasting sound from your eye seems unwise, especially if you ever wear glasses.
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Dec 17 2006, 05:21 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Actually, I would say that's about the simplest description of what it does. Direct Neural Interface. Allows Cyberware and Brain to directly communicate. It basically translate brain electrical signal into data that the cyberware can use and the data the cyberware produce into data the brain can interpret. What else do you need it for, otherwise? Just switching on and off? If the cyberware could produce data directly comprehensible by the brain and vice versa in the first place you could obviously get rid of DNI altogether since on/off is just more electrical communication between brain and machine, not fundamentally different from any other exchange of information that occurs between them. Consider your vision : This is just your brain interpreting the info your eyes are sending. So you could very well have an ultrasound overlay on top of that natural vision if you had ultrasound cyberware sending additional data to the brain through DNI. Just more info. As long as the brain accept it, it's swell. It's all electrical signal anyway, you just have to make sure that the newer ones are intelligible to the brain and I've always figured that was the whole point of DNI. |
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Dec 17 2006, 06:05 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
This little enhancement has caused more chaos in my game then anything else so far. willing to buy into any decent explaination dni or otherwise, what started whole thing was ultrasound in a contact, I ruled that emitter had to be outside source, so as to avoid the argument of whether or not you could still see through the eye emitting ultrasonics.
The groups sami wondered why he couldnt just wear a ultrasonic contact under a custom protective lense over a cyber eye therefore saveing himself some nuyen. So gone back and forth on some ruleings and just wanted clarification on implant, sure if we had an official response its merely matter of a sentence or two of explaination or an easy fix. |
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Dec 17 2006, 06:24 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Obviously it doesn't have to be since it can be implanted. The implant is clearly the emmiter itself and presumably allows your brain to interpret the results through DNI, though that doesn't seem universally accepted. Personnally I think that's exactly what DNI is for ; translate the feedback from the Ultrasound emitter into something the brain understands and nowhere in the BBB does it say that the implant doesn't work on its own and require more parts.
He can. That's what the vision enhancement section is about. Use goggles or whatever with the ultrasound enhancement and that's exactly what your Sammie would have. |
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Dec 17 2006, 06:46 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
Let me run this by ya. Say your blinded spell or other means, vision ie eyes are of no use. Does the ultrasound implant still fuction does removing senses via spell affact eye or visual cortex so to speak?
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Dec 17 2006, 07:08 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
That's a fun one : Ultrasound is, well, sound. If someone is under the invisibility spell you can still see him through Ultrasound because invisibility explicitly affects the visual senses, not sound, as per the description. That much seem clear to me. But OTOH it could be argued that the spell hush would make you invisible to ultrasound. That's how I would play it, anyway. |
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Dec 18 2006, 02:22 AM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
*sigh*
whatever else you wish to argue (the dedicated sim module in the ultrasound being most likely of all proposed), DNI does NOT turn machine data into human brain data. hook your brain up to a commlink. what does that get you? the ability to give mental commands to the commlink. nothing more, nothing less. can you receive data from your commlink? absolutely. machine data. which your brain cannot interpret. but wait, you say, what about full VR? well, why don't we think about this... full VR requires... oh, hey, wait, a sim module... you know, a machine that can take machine data, turn it into human brain data, and send it to your brain. wow, how amazing! as far as the "how come you can see with cyber eyes", well that's really easy. they come with a built in image link. what does the image link do? oh, that's right, it turns machine data into a visual image that the human brain can interpret (whether it be done by translating it to brain data or simply projecting visual data onto your eyes being irrelevant to this discussion). if you wish to argue that the ultrasound sensor comes with the ability to use the full visual experience, then the only way to argue that point is if it comes with a dedicated simsense module (and a DNI, but it definitely has DNI no questions asked) or it comes with a free image link. we know it doesn't come with free image link, because otherwise it would say so. therefore, your only argument is that it comes with a dedicated sim module. my personal opinion is that if it came with a dedicated sim module, it would say so. so under my interpretation, further equipment (equipment which you almost certainly have anyways if you're using ultrasound) is needed. if you wish to allow a free dedicated sim module in the ultrasound, that's your choice, and probably won't break your game. to be honest, i personally think the implanted sim module should be much more essence friendly than it is anyways. |
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Dec 18 2006, 02:28 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Funny how my interpretation requires no addition to the rules while yours require the acquisition of additional cyberware even though the book says nothing about it. One would assume that the designers would have been explicit if it were the case. Ever heard of Occam's razor?
And now you are just making stuff up. Image link can be purchased for goggles while on the other hand and you can have a cybereye without image link and wonder of wonder, you don't go blind. It's just to allow you to display in your field of vision additional visual information from an outside source, usually your PAN. Like text, picture, movie. You know, what it says it does in the BBB on p.323. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:18 AM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
funny how you quoted my statement of the only way a standalone ultrasound sensor could work... and informed me that my interpretation requires the addition of rules... when: 1) that's not MY interpretation. my interpretation is "you need a separate device" 2) your interpretation requires the equally made up rule of "DNI devices translate machine code into human brain code".
you are quite right about the goggles. you are completely wrong about the cybereyes, however. you can't have cybereyes with no image link. it comes built in, as part of the cost, because when you cut your eyes out and replace them with high tech cameras, you need a device to translate the machine code from those cameras into human brain code. same thing with cyberears and sound link. you can see with your cybereyes because they contain a built in image link, you can hear with your cyberears because they contain a built in sound link. if you wish to rule that an ultrasound sensor has a built in "ultrasound sensor link", then that's fine. like i said, it's hardly going to unbalance the game that you no longer have to buy an image link to use ultrasound to it's full potential. heck, for all i know the original intent was that the ultrasound sensor comes with such a device built in. i don't know. you don't know. we're both just guessing really, so neither of our opinions are more valid than the other on that issue. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:31 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,286 |
I don't think the Image Link is a vital part of a cybereye. Yes, it is included as part of the basic system, but so is the eye recording unit, and that isn't essential to making cybereyes work.
Additionally, I'm curious if you think you can't feel with a cyberarm unless you have Touch Link. As far as I know, touch link isn't included with cyberlimbs. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:38 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Yep, I kept the wrong oart of the post when I quoted. Corrected. Indded your interpretation is :"you need a separate device. Which is what I was targeting when I said : Occam's razor. The designer would have been explicit if it were the case. My interpretation requires no rules whatsoever. How the DNI work is pure fluff. All the rules say is if you implant this cyberware is you get an implanted version of the Ultrasound vision enhancement. I say you pay for the widget and you get ultrasound sight. You say that you need more unspecified widget that satisfy your vision of how cyberware works. Fine, but I'm sticking to what's in the rule.
And here we go again, more made up stuff.
And from that you go on a rampage of imagination over the purpose of an image link that is somehow different than that of a non cyber image link even though the rules says it's the same thing. And then you comment on my use of DNI. Sheesh. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:41 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Let's go back to the sources. Before we get augmentation, we only have the BBB and it doesn't say much about DNI. So let's see what SR3's book on cyber said about DNI.
And so yes, I'm now more certain than ever that having the ultrasound cyberware is enough to get ultrasound vision without the use of additional equipment. Now they might decide on a flight of fancy to change it for SR4 but I'm willing to put good money on being vindicated by the time Augmentation comes out. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:53 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,286 |
Though I don't agree with it, I have a feeling that Jaid is going to counter that by saying DNI allows the brain to send information to the device, but it doesn't allow the device to send information to the brain.
As for why the technology could work one way and not the other, I don't know. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:00 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Given that the smartlink specifically states "Requires an image link", and that the description for Ultrasound doesn't, I would agree with Charon's view that it is a fully functional stand-alone device.
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Dec 18 2006, 04:10 AM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
sure. like i said, DNI translate's human brain data into machine data. that's what it does. this allows you to control a device, which is exactly what i said it does... allows you to send mental commands. you need simsense, however, to use your body's senses to understand wireless data. that's what simsense does. if you just hand that out for free to datajacks and trodes, then you end up with a situation where no one needs simsense modules ever. which is funny, because they are explicitly required for a lot of things. of course, then again, SR3 said a lot of things that no longer apply in SR4. lots of terms have changed meanings. shamans can bind spirits. mages can summon elementals. you don't need a VCR to rig anymore. there's no longer any such thing as a remote deck. implanted smartlinks are no different from external ones. and so forth. and heck, if we want to go to SR3, i'm sure there's all kinds of conflicting rulings about more things than i care to think of. SR4 has some of those, too, and it's not even half as big as SR3 was. on to your previous post, why would the designer have been explicit? is the designer supposed to be some sort of infallible perfected being incapable of making errors? perhaps they're supposed to be psychic and be able to know exactly how everything they write is going to be understood? or maybe they're supposed to be perfectly aware of every single word in the entire book, and incapable of failing to realise that the information in their head failed to get turned into words on the page? hate to break it to you, but the designers are humans, just like you and me. fully capable of errors, though they do their best. furthermore, if you read my orginal post, i never said "ultrasound requires an image link to work", i said "ultrasound requires an image link to *see* it". because that's *exactly* what image links do. to give that capability to a DNI means you don't need an image link anymore. because after all, anything that can generate wireframe models in my vision can obviously place a targetting reticule and some numbers there. hey look, i don't need an image link to use a smarlink anymore, because i have DNI! and hey, anything that can put wireframes of real, physical objects in my vision, can obviously put wireframes of virtual objects in my vision too... hey, ain't that funny? i don't need an image link to see AR either, because i have a DNI! and wow, i can receive images from the wireless camera in my remotely piloted drone, and see everything it sees just fine, because anything that can place wireframe images of objects sensed by an implanted sensor can do the same thing with objects sensed by an external, drone mounted sensor just fine, so i don't need an image link for that either! so, without an image link, your ultrasound sensor works. it will be limited as to what it can do. it can probably tell you whether something is there or not. it could probably be set to passive and it could probably tell you if there's ultrasound there or not (if you start getting gibberish through your DNI, you know something's happening). but can it take it's ultrasound information in machine data and transform that into a visual image useable by your brain? not without simsense it can't. in any event, i'm getting way to worked up about this. i'm tired of slamming my head into the wall. we're just going to have to agree to disagree. and that's the last i'm going to bother saying, because i'm just wasting my time here. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:34 AM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Oh, indeed why? To avoid this. And not only do they try to be as explicit as they can, they use errata and FAQ to clarify things. So far, statu quo for Ultrasound. So if they don't say it requires it, it doesn't unless proven otherwise. Not the other way around. And no, DNI that translates machine info into something the brain can understand and vice versa doesn't make image link irrelevant. DNI is just the translator between brain and machine. It's not the tool. Without the imagelink I can't for example receive info from my buddy's gun camera. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:39 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 337 Joined: 1-September 06 From: LI, New York Member No.: 9,286 |
I'm going to stick to my original assessment of this topic and say that all of the other cyber that requires additional equipment to use say they need additional equipment to use. Ultrasound sensor DOES NOT... There for it does NOT. If you want to choose to think that the writers are wrong or forgot to write it in the description that is YOUR choice.
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Dec 20 2006, 07:56 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16-August 03 Member No.: 5,501 |
I have to say, that I am most surprised by the amount of disagreement on this issue. I think that it is fairily clear cut. The image link, as gear An image link, when used as part of a pair of glasses, does not display lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound. What it does do is display movies, text, various AR data, someone else's standard, lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound video feed.
Please note that none of the image enhancements list the image link as a requirement. This can be proved by the possibility of having ultrasound goggles without an image link. The image link, as cyber An image link, when used as part of a cybereye, does not display lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound. What it does do is display movies, text, various AR data, someone else's standard, lowlight, thermographic, magnified vision, or ultrasound video feed.
Please note that none of the image enhancements list the image link as a requirement. Therfore, the image link has nothing to do with vision enhancement, due to the image link not being a requirement for any vision enhancement. What about the smart gun system I hear you ask. Well, you do need an image link for that because the cross hairs + other data are being projected into your field of vision. This information comes from an outside source (i.e. gun) and has to be incoperated into your field of vision. And why isnt the ultrasound sensor part of the cybereye or cyberear systems? I don't know. My guess is that it was not included in the cybereye system because it is not optical (it uses sound waves). And it was not included in the cyberear system because it has to generate a ping (continuous sonic pulse) when operating in active mode, and thats not what you want in the organ that listens for sounds. Does the cybernetic ultrasound sensor generate a visual sensory output? yes.
Does it require the image link? No. that stuff is fairly clear to me, from what I have read in the SR4 book. the DNI stuff I dont have any pirticular insight into, so I will not touch that issue. PS. thanks for reading that long post :) |
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Dec 20 2006, 08:14 AM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Seems about right to me.
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Dec 20 2006, 08:20 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
I would rule the Ultrasound system as a stand alone system because of the way I can see ultrasound being used. When used stand alone (it being headware..installed in your head) then you could turn it on active setting and receive the information in your head, meaning you could probably close your eyes and receive the image that is it creating, an ultrasound version of your surroundings. It is not visual, because ultrasound is not a visual field, it is mental, your mind creating a setting based on the information being put into it. It couldn't be visual very well anyways, because ultrasound works in 360 degrees and that could only be interpretted properly in a mental image, not a visual one. Also ultrasound in bats does not create vision for them, but simply mimics vison input with another sensor. Ultrasound is most likely only used when you can't see at all. And Ultrasound isn't audio either, it is picking up a frequency that your ears can't, hence why it is located as headware and not something you can put just anywhere, because it needs to be able to both project and receive signal from all around the body. Think Daredevil, as much as I dislike the film.... he doesn't see in ultrasound, he can't see, no he creates a mental image of his surroundings via the ultrasound input around him, using his ultrasound power to pick up vibrations with not just his ears but his entire body.
I could see ultrasound being used at a higher essence cost tp wire a sensor system to your body to pick up all vibrations around you. Also I can see ultrasound being able to be linked to another device to allow you to use it at the same time as another sensor, such as your thermal vision and low light, using your PAN to overlay it all and create a super vision of sorts. But again, a PAN is not needed, since ultrasound is a mental imaging system. I actually wouldn't allow Ultrasound as PAN in a game of my own because as I said before, it works in 360 degrees and your PAN doesn't. |
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Dec 20 2006, 11:41 AM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
why in the world would the ultrasound sensor cyberimplant not be able to provide visual data to the brain? would possible purpose would it serve, if it can't do that? that's like selling a hammer, but making you buy the handle separately. SR4, for better or for worse, was designed from the ground up to be simpler. given that, which sounds (hah!) more likely: a) that the devs messed up and forgot to add in that, oh yeah, the ultrasound sensor cyberimplant requires a sim module implant, or b) that the devs messed up and forgot to add in that the ultrasound sensor provides brain-readable visual data on its own? one of these options is simple, and makes sense. the other is complex, and makes no sense.
you didn't need a PAN to do this in previous editions. again, given the move towards simplification, i doubt this has changed. |
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Dec 20 2006, 07:49 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 8-September 06 Member No.: 9,334 |
Hi Guys For accuracy, Cybereyes do INCLUDE an image link. See above. |
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Dec 20 2006, 08:16 PM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't think that was ever in question.
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