 Vive la Belle Republique!, The nation of Quebec?! |
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 Nov 30 2006, 12:55 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025  |
Kind of a bombshell, according to the news. The PM basically said that Quebec is to be recognized as a "nation within a united Canada," whatever that means. Remains to be seen if this is going to result in any meaningful changes, or if it's just hot air to quiet the separatists for a while. At the very least, it makes the concept of an independent Quebec more feasible in the sixth world. But I'm no political expert. Anybody want to weigh in on this? Speculate on what it might mean for the future?
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Nov 30 2006, 01:39 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,691 |
actually, this recognition was imposed by the conservative themselves. They wanted to take the Bloc Québécois by surprise and made them vote against this motion because they included ''within an united Canada''.
The problem is, the Bloc decided to vote for the motion anyway, and now all the federal parties are divided in whether we should have done this or not... But we must remember this is nothing but a motion...not even a law. It's as if the government has voted a motion stating that macaroni and cheese is the best meal ever...Now, it may influence future decision and laws, but in itself, the motion is worth nothing. In the Sixth World, this motion would be even more useless because ''an united Canada'' doesn't exist anymore. Therefore the motion would be discarded as unrelevant. (I'm from Quebec...) |
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Nov 30 2006, 02:16 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Part of the reason "an united Canada" doesn't exist is because Quebec is an independent nation :P
~J |
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Nov 30 2006, 03:30 PM
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#4
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Well, it started out by the Bloc who said to vote on "Quebec is a nation". The conservatives then successfully forced the addition of "within a united canada", which then everybody agreed on because it actually ended up pretty much screwing the Bloc. I don't see it having much political repercussions. 71% of Canadians polled thought it was bullshit, so it's not something that's going to have much hold anyway. Nah, I see it as pretty irrelevant. |
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Nov 30 2006, 05:24 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 27-October 02 From: Chicago Containment Zone Member No.: 3,504 |
Yeah, from what I've gathered, it essentially makes mention that the Quebecois are a different culture/nation (such as how there are people of certain nationalities). So unfortunately I won't be visiting a seceeding republic in January ~_^
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Nov 30 2006, 05:25 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
Vive le Québec libre!
Had to squeeze it in there somewhere... |
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Nov 30 2006, 08:04 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I think it'd be great if Quebec became it's own nation, and all the rest of Canada was it's own nation, then we could invade them as a security risk-which would take what? A week? Less? I forget the exchange rate.
Anyways that'd be fine fun by me. |
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Nov 30 2006, 08:23 PM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I miss the days when Maine declared war on Canada. Not the US, Maine.
~J |
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Nov 30 2006, 08:42 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
Good luck with that, Paul. I'm no friend of AngloCanada, but you can't even handle a state a fraction of the size of Canada... :rotfl:
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Nov 30 2006, 11:06 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,691 |
Actually, the bloc wanted to make a motion stating the quebec is a nation, but the conservative were faster and made a motion (without the bloc having to make anything) about a quebec nation inside a united Canada. Thus, the conservatives wanted the bloc to vote against the motion so they can go around and brag about how the bloc was against the concept of the quebec nation. But the Bloc decided it was better for them to vote for the motion, winning a small victory. Duceppe added before he finally voted for the motion: a united Canada...for now. ;) |
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Dec 1 2006, 03:20 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
I'm kinda disappointed. I thought that there'd be some really wild speculations about where this would lead to. Instead, I get relatively objective elaboration, cool-headedness and good-natured humour. Bummer.
;) |
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Dec 1 2006, 03:36 AM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The thing is that any 'wild speculation' is hardly necessary, as this event is one in a long line that are (close enough) in keeping with how the Sixth World will turn out to be in 2070. I don't think anyone here has much doubt that Quebec will be (or at least attempt to be) its own nation 50 years down the road in our future either. What's to speculate about, either Shadowrun-related or not?
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Dec 1 2006, 04:40 AM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,987 Joined: 1-March 05 From: République Libre du Québec Member No.: 7,129 |
Almost there! We're getting there slowly but surely!
Vive le Québec libre!!!!!!!!!!!! (I'm a diehard separatist :P) |
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Dec 1 2006, 04:53 AM
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#14
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Didn't they already try once a while back, and just not get the votes?
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Dec 1 2006, 05:36 AM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep, but only barely by something like 1%. :D Should have opened the polls up to the rest of Canada. We'd probably have seen a different result. ;) |
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Dec 1 2006, 01:04 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,987 Joined: 1-March 05 From: République Libre du Québec Member No.: 7,129 |
It indeed came to 49% Yes, 51% No.
So all we need is one more go at it ;) |
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Dec 1 2006, 01:24 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Silly me, expecting imagination and fantasy... :( Well, go with the flow, I guess.
Personally, I think that separation becomes less likely as time goes by. That's just a comment on society. As globalization continues, more and more young people stop identifying themselves with a particular region. I suspect that the numbers would show that the average age of separatists is a lot higher than the average age of quebecois. If separation happens, it'll have to happen in the next 10 years or so. YMMV And I'm not convinced, in the way that many of my neighbors are, that separation is such a bad thing. Mostly people around here are anticipating that if it happened, there would be too many concessions given. Whatever. Fortune's right, in that there's a lot of the "kick 'em out before they leave" kind of opinion, at least in the parts of the country that I know. I don't feel that way, but I don't begrudge Mister Juan, either. But to Shadowrun-ize the post: Does the latest version of sixth-world history allow for the possibility that the separation vote was rigged, or other possible conspiracies? Is there a megacorp angle? Founders of CATco behind the fictional separation to create a political "home ground" or something. |
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Dec 1 2006, 01:44 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Luckily the exchange rate is favorable, and half our job is done for us. And hell even if we don't win it's more like a sports outing than a war. |
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Dec 1 2006, 01:46 PM
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#19
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I don't even think the vote would have required to been rigged. At the time, all hell was breaking loose, and Quebec society respond to these fearful changes with fascism. From there, it was real easy to seperate, in terms of getting the votes from Quebecers to the rest of Canada not objecting too much (iirc Canada still existed when Quebec split). In fact, I doubt any corporation would have wanted seperation, really. As for corp involvment, separation is economic suicide in general. The only one that benefitted was Cross, hiding behind draconian protectionist laws to grow, so they would have backed it, but 1 backer vs The Rest is not a winning line.
But then shortly afterwards North America exploded, causing economic mayhem, so independant Quebec ended up being a workable idea anyway. |
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Dec 1 2006, 06:37 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,691 |
I assume you are speaking when looking at shadowrun storyline and not history itself. I dislike how games have a tendency to label quebec as a facist/intolerant nation. (Think Free Quebec in Palladium's Rift) The fact the quebec independance movement makes a lot of americans to make a comparison between there own civil war is part of the answer. |
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Dec 1 2006, 07:59 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes. He was responding to Dog's question above about the vote in Shadowrun's timeline that led to seperation. As for the common portrayal of Quebec in that light, which is in no way merely limited to games, well from my personal experiences in Quebec I can definitely see where that view about intolerance comes from. ;) |
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Dec 1 2006, 08:15 PM
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#22
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Yeah, Fascist Quebec is an SR thing, not a current thing. I've never met a separatist I would call fascist.
The movement, honestly, is misunderstood outside Quebec. To simplify to an accurate statement, this is a 'war' between rationnal and irrationnal people, calculating vs emotional people. Rationnal people, who can count, don't support economic destruction of Quebec. Emotionnal people cling to an idea that makes them feel better, that they imagine is an end to many of their sufferings. Well, there are also those that follow the movement just because their parents or other role models did. You know, kind of how most people don't choose their religion, but adamantly cling to it anyway. The level of "patriotism" displayed by separatists is dwarfed by that of your average american, so it's a little funny to think they'd eye them and call them fascist anyway. |
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Dec 1 2006, 08:21 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 7-May 06 From: Winnipeg Member No.: 8,532 |
I'll try to put some imagination and fantasy into the topic, just for you Dog ;) First, I totally agree with you on separation being less likely as time goes by. Low birth rate, immigration and PR to improve Canada's image in Quebec *cough sponsorship scandal cough* are all to "blame". The recent recognition as a nation will "force" people to discuss it more and might revive an interest for it. However, I don't think it will be possible until we got a leader worthy of leading the nation to independence. Quebec is missing a CHARISMATIC LEADER with a value-driven agenda, speaking of past heroic achievements and with a near-mystical attitude (wow, it sounds like a sect lol). Until that leader appears, I don't think it's possible for the separatist movement to succeed. I think the "mystical part" might be of great importance here. Could we imagine the Native Uprising in Shadowrun without Howling Coyote? How about a shaman born of a Quebecois and a native who was able to gather the 2 nations (natives and French) together, speaking with the wisdom of ages, talking to ancients spirits (both native and past patriotic Quebecois) ? Second, regarding the "kick 'em before they leave", I think we can imagine Quebec's relationship with Canada like an old married couple. The guy (Canada) took Quebec for wife without her consent. At first, the woman (Qc) didn't have any freedom and fought for it. As time went by, she was able to become more independent from her husband. They eventually had kids (projects, history, partnerships, etc.) together and were almost able to love each other at some point. But a golden cage is a cage nonetheless and the woman finally decided to leave her husband to get her total freedom back. The husband was mad, having been rejected after all he had done for his wife! It's hard to be rejected. Like in a normal relationship, it's better to dump the other than being dumped! Your pride is not hurt as much... The real question now is what do we do with the kids? (Unfortunately I don't have the answers...) Third, you want conspiracies? Well, unions are VERY powerful in Quebec. I totally imagine one union becoming really powerful and corporate power having problems in Quebec, until one corp is able to take control of that union. The separatist movement would then be backed by the all-powerful union (read: the said corp). The separation would then be VERY profitable for the corp in question. With the union in its pocket, the said corp would be able to control even other corps in the nation (I'm not talking megacorps here). Extraterritoriality might be handled differently in Quebec, thanks to unions. There's also the fact that Quebec is a microsociety, an isolated island of French language and culture in a sea of Anglo-saxon culture. It's easy to control people's minds in such an isolated nation. Concerning a possibility the vote was rigged, why rig it when you control every aspect of everyday life? *cough Quebecor cough*. The said corp could have an easy monopoly on mostly everything in the nation and make the vote a possibility. I understand that all the bullshit I just wrote would require a rework of Quebec's history in Shadowrun. Many factors are necessary for the nation to separate from Canada. I would also see Quebec becoming independent after 2010 (as it is now). I also think that the official language would be French but not the only legal language, it's a matter of survival! I can totally see Joe the random pedestrian as having a very notable preference for French (with a strong anti-anglo bias) and the corps adopting English as an official business language. It wouldn't be the first time corps controlled by English-speaking businessmen are controlling the nation. It would be an ironic come back to the old days... Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil... Peace! Crossfire, Dog's favourite Quebecois :P P.S. For all my Quebecois brothers and sisters out there, just a funny memory... I once had to play a game set for a while in Quebec. Before the run, we had a meeting with Mr. Tremblay, not Mr. Jonhson... it was quite funny! |
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Dec 1 2006, 09:24 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
FWIW, I suspect a lot of the popular shtick of a fascist Quebec was formed by the Duplessis period; That, and the Charter of the French Language from the 70s. |
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Dec 1 2006, 09:35 PM
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#25
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Anyone remember the book The Nine Nations of North America written back in 1981 by Joel Garreau? It was an interesting premise that divided North America along Economic and cultural lines at the time.
For one, it had Quebec as its own sovereign nation and an obviously "liberated" Cuba grouped with Jamaica, the DR, the Bahamas and South Florida (named "The Islands)." One kind of cheesy division was "Ecotopia" which was the region west of the Cascades reaching from Anchorage down to San Francisco. |
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