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Dog
Kind of a bombshell, according to the news. The PM basically said that Quebec is to be recognized as a "nation within a united Canada," whatever that means. Remains to be seen if this is going to result in any meaningful changes, or if it's just hot air to quiet the separatists for a while. At the very least, it makes the concept of an independent Quebec more feasible in the sixth world. But I'm no political expert. Anybody want to weigh in on this? Speculate on what it might mean for the future?
Dentris
actually, this recognition was imposed by the conservative themselves. They wanted to take the Bloc Québécois by surprise and made them vote against this motion because they included ''within an united Canada''.

The problem is, the Bloc decided to vote for the motion anyway, and now all the federal parties are divided in whether we should have done this or not...

But we must remember this is nothing but a motion...not even a law. It's as if the government has voted a motion stating that macaroni and cheese is the best meal ever...Now, it may influence future decision and laws, but in itself, the motion is worth nothing.

In the Sixth World, this motion would be even more useless because ''an united Canada'' doesn't exist anymore. Therefore the motion would be discarded as unrelevant.

(I'm from Quebec...)
Kagetenshi
Part of the reason "an united Canada" doesn't exist is because Quebec is an independent nation nyahnyah.gif

~J
Backgammon
QUOTE (Dentris)
actually, this recognition was imposed by the conservative themselves. They wanted to take the Bloc Québécois by surprise and made them vote against this motion because they included ''within an united Canada''.

The problem is, the Bloc decided to vote for the motion anyway, and now all the federal parties are divided in whether we should have done this or not...

But we must remember this is nothing but a motion...not even a law. It's as if the government has voted a motion stating that macaroni and cheese is the best meal ever...Now, it may influence future decision and laws, but in itself, the motion is worth nothing.

In the Sixth World, this motion would be even more useless because ''an united Canada'' doesn't exist anymore. Therefore the motion would be discarded as unrelevant.

(I'm from Quebec...)

Well, it started out by the Bloc who said to vote on "Quebec is a nation". The conservatives then successfully forced the addition of "within a united canada", which then everybody agreed on because it actually ended up pretty much screwing the Bloc.

I don't see it having much political repercussions. 71% of Canadians polled thought it was bullshit, so it's not something that's going to have much hold anyway. Nah, I see it as pretty irrelevant.
BrianL03
Yeah, from what I've gathered, it essentially makes mention that the Quebecois are a different culture/nation (such as how there are people of certain nationalities). So unfortunately I won't be visiting a seceeding republic in January ~_^
Yoan
Vive le Québec libre!

Had to squeeze it in there somewhere...
Paul
I think it'd be great if Quebec became it's own nation, and all the rest of Canada was it's own nation, then we could invade them as a security risk-which would take what? A week? Less? I forget the exchange rate.

Anyways that'd be fine fun by me.
Kagetenshi
I miss the days when Maine declared war on Canada. Not the US, Maine.

~J
Yoan
Good luck with that, Paul. I'm no friend of AngloCanada, but you can't even handle a state a fraction of the size of Canada... rotfl.gif
Dentris
QUOTE (BrianL03)
Yeah, from what I've gathered, it essentially makes mention that the Quebecois are a different culture/nation (such as how there are people of certain nationalities). So unfortunately I won't be visiting a seceeding republic in January ~_^

Actually, the bloc wanted to make a motion stating the quebec is a nation, but the conservative were faster and made a motion (without the bloc having to make anything) about a quebec nation inside a united Canada.

Thus, the conservatives wanted the bloc to vote against the motion so they can go around and brag about how the bloc was against the concept of the quebec nation. But the Bloc decided it was better for them to vote for the motion, winning a small victory. Duceppe added before he finally voted for the motion: a united Canada...for now. wink.gif
Dog
I'm kinda disappointed. I thought that there'd be some really wild speculations about where this would lead to. Instead, I get relatively objective elaboration, cool-headedness and good-natured humour. Bummer.

wink.gif
Fortune
The thing is that any 'wild speculation' is hardly necessary, as this event is one in a long line that are (close enough) in keeping with how the Sixth World will turn out to be in 2070. I don't think anyone here has much doubt that Quebec will be (or at least attempt to be) its own nation 50 years down the road in our future either. What's to speculate about, either Shadowrun-related or not?
Mister Juan
Almost there! We're getting there slowly but surely!

Vive le Québec libre!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I'm a diehard separatist nyahnyah.gif)
fistandantilus4.0
Didn't they already try once a while back, and just not get the votes?
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Didn't they already try once a while back, and just not get the votes?

Yep, but only barely by something like 1%. biggrin.gif

Should have opened the polls up to the rest of Canada. We'd probably have seen a different result. wink.gif
Mister Juan
It indeed came to 49% Yes, 51% No.
So all we need is one more go at it wink.gif
Dog
Silly me, expecting imagination and fantasy... frown.gif Well, go with the flow, I guess.

Personally, I think that separation becomes less likely as time goes by. That's just a comment on society. As globalization continues, more and more young people stop identifying themselves with a particular region. I suspect that the numbers would show that the average age of separatists is a lot higher than the average age of quebecois. If separation happens, it'll have to happen in the next 10 years or so. YMMV

And I'm not convinced, in the way that many of my neighbors are, that separation is such a bad thing. Mostly people around here are anticipating that if it happened, there would be too many concessions given. Whatever. Fortune's right, in that there's a lot of the "kick 'em out before they leave" kind of opinion, at least in the parts of the country that I know. I don't feel that way, but I don't begrudge Mister Juan, either.

But to Shadowrun-ize the post: Does the latest version of sixth-world history allow for the possibility that the separation vote was rigged, or other possible conspiracies? Is there a megacorp angle? Founders of CATco behind the fictional separation to create a political "home ground" or something.

Paul
QUOTE (Yoan)
Good luck with that, Paul. I'm no friend of AngloCanada, but you can't even handle a state a fraction of the size of Canada... rotfl.gif

Luckily the exchange rate is favorable, and half our job is done for us. And hell even if we don't win it's more like a sports outing than a war.
Backgammon
I don't even think the vote would have required to been rigged. At the time, all hell was breaking loose, and Quebec society respond to these fearful changes with fascism. From there, it was real easy to seperate, in terms of getting the votes from Quebecers to the rest of Canada not objecting too much (iirc Canada still existed when Quebec split). In fact, I doubt any corporation would have wanted seperation, really. As for corp involvment, separation is economic suicide in general. The only one that benefitted was Cross, hiding behind draconian protectionist laws to grow, so they would have backed it, but 1 backer vs The Rest is not a winning line.

But then shortly afterwards North America exploded, causing economic mayhem, so independant Quebec ended up being a workable idea anyway.

Dentris
QUOTE (Backgammon)
I don't even think the vote would have required to been rigged. At the time, all hell was breaking loose, and Quebec society respond to these fearful changes with fascism. From there, it was real easy to seperate, in terms of getting the votes from Quebecers to the rest of Canada not objecting too much (iirc Canada still existed when Quebec split). In fact, I doubt any corporation would have wanted seperation, really. As for corp involvment, separation is economic suicide in general. The only one that benefitted was Cross, hiding behind draconian protectionist laws to grow, so they would have backed it, but 1 backer vs The Rest is not a winning line.

But then shortly afterwards North America exploded, causing economic mayhem, so independant Quebec ended up being a workable idea anyway.

I assume you are speaking when looking at shadowrun storyline and not history itself. I dislike how games have a tendency to label quebec as a facist/intolerant nation. (Think Free Quebec in Palladium's Rift) The fact the quebec independance movement makes a lot of americans to make a comparison between there own civil war is part of the answer.
Fortune
QUOTE (Dentris @ Dec 2 2006, 05:37 AM)
I assume you are speaking when looking at shadowrun storyline and not history itself.

Yes. He was responding to Dog's question above about the vote in Shadowrun's timeline that led to seperation.

As for the common portrayal of Quebec in that light, which is in no way merely limited to games, well from my personal experiences in Quebec I can definitely see where that view about intolerance comes from. wink.gif
Backgammon
Yeah, Fascist Quebec is an SR thing, not a current thing. I've never met a separatist I would call fascist.

The movement, honestly, is misunderstood outside Quebec. To simplify to an accurate statement, this is a 'war' between rationnal and irrationnal people, calculating vs emotional people.

Rationnal people, who can count, don't support economic destruction of Quebec.

Emotionnal people cling to an idea that makes them feel better, that they imagine is an end to many of their sufferings. Well, there are also those that follow the movement just because their parents or other role models did. You know, kind of how most people don't choose their religion, but adamantly cling to it anyway.

The level of "patriotism" displayed by separatists is dwarfed by that of your average american, so it's a little funny to think they'd eye them and call them fascist anyway.
Crossfire
QUOTE (Dog)
Silly me, expecting imagination and fantasy...  frown.gif  Well, go with the flow, I guess.

Personally, I think that separation becomes less likely as time goes by.  That's just a comment on society.  As globalization continues, more and more young people stop identifying themselves with a particular region.  I suspect that the numbers would show that the average age of separatists is a lot higher than the average age of quebecois.  If separation happens, it'll have to happen in the next 10 years or so.  YMMV

And I'm not convinced, in the way that many of my neighbors are, that separation is such a bad thing.  Mostly people around here are anticipating that if it happened, there would be too many concessions given.  Whatever.  Fortune's right, in that there's a lot of the "kick 'em out before they leave" kind of opinion, at least in the parts of the country that I know.  I don't feel that way, but I don't begrudge Mister Juan, either.

But to Shadowrun-ize the post:  Does the latest version of sixth-world history allow for the possibility that the separation vote was rigged, or other possible conspiracies?  Is there a megacorp angle?  Founders of CATco behind the fictional separation to create a political "home ground" or something.

I'll try to put some imagination and fantasy into the topic, just for you Dog wink.gif

First, I totally agree with you on separation being less likely as time goes by. Low birth rate, immigration and PR to improve Canada's image in Quebec *cough sponsorship scandal cough* are all to "blame". The recent recognition as a nation will "force" people to discuss it more and might revive an interest for it. However, I don't think it will be possible until we got a leader worthy of leading the nation to independence. Quebec is missing a CHARISMATIC LEADER with a value-driven agenda, speaking of past heroic achievements and with a near-mystical attitude (wow, it sounds like a sect lol). Until that leader appears, I don't think it's possible for the separatist movement to succeed. I think the "mystical part" might be of great importance here. Could we imagine the Native Uprising in Shadowrun without Howling Coyote? How about a shaman born of a Quebecois and a native who was able to gather the 2 nations (natives and French) together, speaking with the wisdom of ages, talking to ancients spirits (both native and past patriotic Quebecois) ?

Second, regarding the "kick 'em before they leave", I think we can imagine Quebec's relationship with Canada like an old married couple. The guy (Canada) took Quebec for wife without her consent. At first, the woman (Qc) didn't have any freedom and fought for it. As time went by, she was able to become more independent from her husband. They eventually had kids (projects, history, partnerships, etc.) together and were almost able to love each other at some point. But a golden cage is a cage nonetheless and the woman finally decided to leave her husband to get her total freedom back. The husband was mad, having been rejected after all he had done for his wife! It's hard to be rejected. Like in a normal relationship, it's better to dump the other than being dumped! Your pride is not hurt as much... The real question now is what do we do with the kids? (Unfortunately I don't have the answers...)

Third, you want conspiracies? Well, unions are VERY powerful in Quebec. I totally imagine one union becoming really powerful and corporate power having problems in Quebec, until one corp is able to take control of that union. The separatist movement would then be backed by the all-powerful union (read: the said corp). The separation would then be VERY profitable for the corp in question. With the union in its pocket, the said corp would be able to control even other corps in the nation (I'm not talking megacorps here). Extraterritoriality might be handled differently in Quebec, thanks to unions.

There's also the fact that Quebec is a microsociety, an isolated island of French language and culture in a sea of Anglo-saxon culture. It's easy to control people's minds in such an isolated nation. Concerning a possibility the vote was rigged, why rig it when you control every aspect of everyday life? *cough Quebecor cough*. The said corp could have an easy monopoly on mostly everything in the nation and make the vote a possibility.

I understand that all the bullshit I just wrote would require a rework of Quebec's history in Shadowrun. Many factors are necessary for the nation to separate from Canada. I would also see Quebec becoming independent after 2010 (as it is now). I also think that the official language would be French but not the only legal language, it's a matter of survival! I can totally see Joe the random pedestrian as having a very notable preference for French (with a strong anti-anglo bias) and the corps adopting English as an official business language. It wouldn't be the first time corps controlled by English-speaking businessmen are controlling the nation. It would be an ironic come back to the old days... Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil...

Peace!

Crossfire, Dog's favourite Quebecois nyahnyah.gif

P.S. For all my Quebecois brothers and sisters out there, just a funny memory... I once had to play a game set for a while in Quebec. Before the run, we had a meeting with Mr. Tremblay, not Mr. Jonhson... it was quite funny!
Penta
QUOTE (Dentris)
I dislike how games have a tendency to label quebec as a facist/intolerant nation. (Think Free Quebec in Palladium's Rift)

FWIW, I suspect a lot of the popular shtick of a fascist Quebec was formed by the Duplessis period; That, and the Charter of the French Language from the 70s.
Kyoto Kid
...Anyone remember the book The Nine Nations of North America written back in 1981 by Joel Garreau? It was an interesting premise that divided North America along Economic and cultural lines at the time.

For one, it had Quebec as its own sovereign nation and an obviously "liberated" Cuba grouped with Jamaica, the DR, the Bahamas and South Florida (named "The Islands)." One kind of cheesy division was "Ecotopia" which was the region west of the Cascades reaching from Anchorage down to San Francisco.
Snow_Fox
The problem, SR not withstandinbg is that Quebec would not have western fuel, I believe the quote was "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark," fisheries- Nova Scotia would be Candian, or even timber since the last time this came round the rural communities in the timber industry were against it and if Quebec could seceed from Canada, then they cannot complain if the timber region's population seceeds form Quebec right back to Canada. they'd be left with 2 large cities stuff with franco-philes and not much else.
speaking form experience the French view the Quebecois as posers. Seriously, want to offend a frenchman outside of France? Tell him he speaks french like he's from Quebec.
Dog
I'll have to remember that, S.F. My brother's sig/other is from Paris and I don't think much of her. I'll phrase it like a compliment. "Wow, you sound like you grew up in Sherbrooke!"

Crossfire: Never wink.gif at me again. It's creepy.
Dentris
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
The problem, SR not withstandinbg is that Quebec would not have western fuel, I believe the quote was "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark," fisheries- Nova Scotia would be Candian, or even timber since the last time this came round the rural communities in the timber industry were against it and if Quebec could seceed from Canada, then they cannot complain if the timber region's population seceeds form Quebec right back to Canada. they'd be left with 2 large cities stuff with franco-philes and not much else.
speaking form experience the French view the Quebecois as posers. Seriously, want to offend a frenchman outside of France? Tell him he speaks french like he's from Quebec.

One word: Water

Quebec has roughly 1/15 of all drinkable water around the globe, and a powerful hydroelectric potential. While Alberta has made a fortune with his oil, Quebec is sitting on a massive reserve of blue gold...I think an independant quebec is a viable option in the near future, both from his natural ressources (water, gold...and new diamond mines are being discovered in the north by the way) and the level of education. The "service" industry is not something to underestimate, small and medium enterprises are flourishing and entrepreneurship is a powerful economic booster.
Crossfire
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
The problem, SR not withstandinbg is that Quebec would not have western fuel, I believe the quote was "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark," fisheries- Nova Scotia would be Candian, or even timber since the last time this came round the rural communities in the timber industry were against it and if Quebec could seceed from Canada, then they cannot complain if the timber region's population seceeds form Quebec right back to Canada. they'd be left with 2 large cities stuff with franco-philes and not much else.
speaking form experience the French view the Quebecois as posers. Seriously, want to offend a frenchman outside of France? Tell him he speaks french like he's from Quebec.

Sharing your ideas with us, as well as your constructive criticism and wits, honour us all...

Peace!

Crossfire
Dog
I don't think it's a question of economic survivability. Quebec's economy is stronger than most other provinces.

Like Crossfire said. They need a Louis Riel, but they got... who? Andre Boisclair? (I had to look it up...)
Paul
QUOTE (Backgammon)
The level of "patriotism" displayed by separatists is dwarfed by that of your average american, so it's a little funny to think they'd eye them and call them fascist anyway.

Huh. Since my experience is that most Americans are apathetic patriots on average, and undereducated well intentioned at best I can only imagine what this says about Quebec.

Hating Quebec is fun, and healthy. Just like hating all things french is. It certainly isn't meant to be taken so seriously.
Dentris
Quebecois have some flaws, but their biggest one is the Cyrano de Bergerac's complex.

Cyrano was really proud and although he made a lot of jokes about his nose, never tolerated anyone else making these kind of jokes.

Québecois love to make fun of themselves, (humorists is really lucrative) but are intolerant when a non-québécois is doing the same.

But still, i still believe our nation (since it is now officially accepted by the federal government) is a strong and economically viable nation.

Edit:

A little québécois joke.

An albertan and a québécois are walking down the street and stumbled upon a magical lamp. A genie appears and grants them a single wish. The Québécois jumps at the opportunity and asks: "I want out glorious nation to be free from outside influence...I want Québec to be surrounded by a great 25 meters high wall."

The genie snaps his finger and the wish is granted.

The albertan says: "I wish to fill it with water."


But don't you dare say this joke to a québécois if you are not one. You'll get an immediate reaction, and not only from separatists.
Paul
Luckily everyone has flaws. Or else we couldn't have so much fun.
SL James
QUOTE (Dentris @ Dec 1 2006, 06:12 PM)
But don't you dare say this joke to a québécois if you are not one. You'll get an immediate reaction, and not only from separatists.

You think quebecois are bad. Imagine telling that joke about a country with a name beginning with "I" and ends with "l."
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Dentris @ Dec 1 2006, 06:12 PM)
But don't you dare say this joke to a québécois if you are not one. You'll get an immediate reaction, and not only from separatists.

You think quebecois are bad. Imagine telling that joke about a country with a name beginning with "I" and ends with "l."

I think that tends to get you shot.
Mister Juan
Twice.
SL James
That's like killing Darth Vader for double parking.
hyzmarca
An Israeli and a German National Socialist are walking down the street and stumble upon a magical lamp. A genie appears and grants them a single wish. The Israeli jumps at the opportunity and asks: "I want our glorious nation to be free from outside influence...I want Isreal to be surrounded by a great impenetrable dome."

The genie snaps his finger and the wish is granted.

The Nazi says: "I wish to fill it with phosgene gas."
ShadowDragon8685
Holy shit, dude. You did not just go there.

*scatters as far and as fast as possible.*

Next time, sieze some moralistic high ground that dosen't lay on the artiliary range.
SL James
People who get their panties in a bunch because of a joke are idiots.

And that is, btw, very funny.
TheRedRightHand
I'm persoanlly all for Quebec seperating from Canada. As long as we don't have to support them afterwords.

I mean look at all the good things the rest of Canada will gain from it. No more having to take French in school. No more packages coming in both languages. No more PM's or governament officals who hail from Quebec and who are just given their jobs because they are from there and people want to appease the frenchies. No more bitching and complaining.

It truely would be a beautiful thing.
hyzmarca
I don't really understand the whole "don't go there" thing. I mean, if someone says "Don't go there" They are obviously fully aware of where "there" is and are already thinking about it.

It is disingenuous. The idea is already out there but they "don't go there" people want to put their fingers in their ears and hum while pretending that it isn't. Really, when someone says "don't go there" you've already went there and brought them along with you. You might as well go all the way.

As for the issue of the Quebec/Canada separation invoking the United States Civil War, I don't see that. Now, I don't live in Canada and I don't care about Quebec in the slightest, but it doesn't seem to have the same dynamic. It is more like the Conch Republic's secession, really.

Interesting to note is that the Conch Republic is the only foreign nation that the United States has even officially surrendered to.
Dentris
And Canada is the only nation that was able to successfully invade the USA and burn it's Capital...

I don't think they teach this in american schools, but they do it in our schools.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Dentris @ Dec 2 2006, 08:00 AM)
And Canada is the only nation that was able to successfully invade the USA and burn it's Capital...

I don't think they teach this in american schools, but they do it in our schools.

While we say that there are no hard feelings, we're still a little miffed over the War of 1812 and are plotting an elaborate and unexpected revenge. Be warned.

Edit: and Canada wasn't a nation at the time. Accurately, it was Great Britain that did the invading of the USA via Her remaining North American colonies.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I don't really understand the whole "don't go there" thing. I mean, if someone says "Don't go there" They are obviously fully aware of where "there" is and are already thinking about it.

It is disingenuous. The idea is already out there but they "don't go there" people want to put their fingers in their ears and hum while pretending that it isn't.

I'm not sure I agree. Doubtless some people want that, but the reaction may also be akin to Victorian-era ladies fainting or swooning at immoral (by the standards of the time) acts—it demonstrates that they're a moral (by whatever standards they've picked) person to the crowd, and have the proper violent aversion to whatever it is.

Or maybe I've just spent too much time in lit class.

~J
Paul
QUOTE (Dentris)
And Canada is the only nation that was able to successfully invade the USA and burn it's Capital...

I don't think they teach this in american schools, but they do it in our schools.

No, they do teach it. I want to say 6th through 8th grade range. Or at least they did when I was in school. Often American history classes are filled with a lot of self depreciating humor, believe it or not.
Fortune
QUOTE (Dentris)
And Canada is the only nation that was able to successfully invade the USA and burn it's Capital...

If you don't count the Confederacy as a 'nation'. wink.gif
Dentris
QUOTE (hyzmarca)

While we say that there are no hard feelings, we're still a little miffed over the War of 1812 and are plotting an elaborate and unexpected revenge. Be warned.

You know, americans attacked us first (and thanks to Laura Secord, we were able to repel the invasion)

The "Burn the White House Down" (Which wasn't white and wasn't called the white house at the time) incident is only the punishment for trying to conquer Canada...

grinbig.gif
hyzmarca
We didn't exactly attack Canada. We attacked the British colonies that would become Canada in the future and we only did it because Great Britain was kidnapping American citizens and forcing them to serve in the British Navy.

There wouldn't have been any problem at all if Canada wasn't full of Loyalists.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Dog)
I don't think it's a question of economic survivability. Quebec's economy is stronger than most other provinces.

It's ENTIRELY a question of economic survivability. Separatists don't bother with actually calculating it out. Only recently did one guy in the PQ do it, and is numbers were a joke (and worst of all, he said a "free" Quebec would still use the Canadian dollar. What a moron.)

We can't seperate because we would then become a third world nation. You know, sometimes I wish we would, just to see those lazy blue collar fucks realise the day after that, no, you can't have a upper middle-class lifestyle with your trained monkey job, even in a separated Quebec. And then see what would happen when they'd become even poorer. Working harder would of course not be an option, because, ya know, this is Quebec, so they'd paralyse enterprises with massive strikes to stop wages from droping. Businesses would of course not be able to meet demands, tank, and close up. Foreign business would have dried up a long time ago (trust me, I've seen it first hand, foreigners would be relunctant to invest in separated Quebec), so the economy would crash hard. We'd still have all those natural ressources, but you have to be kidding if you think that alone can sustain a country.

I mean, fo pete's sake. Lucien Bouchard and his associates wrote that manifesto about how fucking lazy we are, and how we need to shape up if we don't want the economy to crash in a few decades. And that's WITHOUT seperating.

I love this province. But we have A LOT of work to do before we can reach a point where we can seperate. But the problem is, Quebec is full of dreamers, but no doers.
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