Simplified Firearms, Removing unnessissary complex details. Options

[Chandon]

Shadowrun 4th Edition has much improved on the previous edition by abstracting away unnecessary details in the rules system.

This design strategy has produced massive improvements in a number of areas. The best example is probably the handling of spirits in SR4. Removing the concept of specific spirit types - except in the case of threats like Insect spirits - has made the game much simpler for new players to understand. In addition, the unification of the spirit mechanics by removing the spirit vs. elemental distinction - but not the possession vs. materialization distinction - has made the game even easier to understand. Any gaming group that enjoyed clarity in the difference between a storm spirit, air elemental, slyph, or sky spirit can keep the difference as flavor (explaining a giant flavor difference that is barely even hinted at in the rule books to new players should be no problem).

Shadowrun 4th edition has one blatant flaw - the hold over from previous editions of specific weapons. Having more than 30 different firearms with different stats just in the core book, with more likely to be introduced in future books is far more unnecessary complexity than the game needs.

I suggest the introduction of standard firearms types - one for each weapons skill. I've also decided that ammunition can be abstracted away to avoid unnessisary record keeping (my system avoids both tracking ammunition types and usage).

Other simplifications: The Armor Piercing and Recoil mechanics are unnecessarily complex and have been removed.

Ranges: I've simplified ranges to Near and Far. There are no range penalties. Game masters can trivially use their common sense to determine if a shot is possible.

Optional powers: Each optional power doubles the cost of the weapon. An optional power, if purchased, always applies when using the weapon. Each optional power can only be purchased once.

=== [ New Standard Firearms ]

Pistol - A weapon using the pistols skill. Base Damage = 4P. Range = Near. Avail = 5R. Price = 200¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Shot Rounds, +1 damage, Composite Frame, Concealable

Automatic - A weapon using the automatics skill. Base Damage = 4P. Range = Near. Avail = 8R. Price = 300¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Burst Fire, +1 damage, Concealable

Longarm - A weapon using the longarms skill. Base Damage = 7P. Range = Far. Avail = 7R. Price = 400¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Shot Rounds, +1 Damage, Scope (allows "really far" range), Double Barreled

Heavy Weapon - A weapon using the heavy weapons skill. Base Damage = 7P. Range = Far. Avail = 12F. Always fires long bursts. Price = 600¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Burst Fire, Long Bursts, +1 damage

=== [ Ammunition ]
Ammo: Players declare which ammo type they are using as part of their attack declaration. Any ammo can be used in any weapon. Players never "run out" of ammo.

Bullets - This represents any type of bullet.
Explosives - This represents missiles and grenades. The attack has a 10m radius centered on the target.
Elemental Bullets - Elemental bullets have an elemental damage type of the player's choice and do +1 damage. This represents things like Stick & Shock rounds.

I wish I had time to write out a play example showing how much these rules simplify game play and open up options for play groups in describing things in a manner more in line with their style of play, but I've got to go do something important.

I'm sure that someone else can come up with some excellent game play examples showing the increased ease of use and flexibility of this rules variant...

[BlueRondo]

My sarcasm detector is broken, so I have to ask: is this a joke?

[Fortune]

To be fair, it does sound like a good system to use for Big Eyes, Small Shadowrun.

[Butterblume]

I find it oversimplified to a point where it isn't fun anymore.

[lorechaser]

So, your point is that you don't like SR4, right?

And feel that the spirit rules are oversimplified.

Great. Have a great day! Good thing there's not a rule against posting blatant trolls, or anti-SR4 threads in the SR4 forums....

[Zen Shooter01]

I'm going to go clean my assault rifles now, just to calm down.

[Kyoto Kid]

...KK 4.3's (yes she's received a few upgrades) position on this is nobody's going to take her Warhawks out of her hands without a fight. She'll be packing EXEX with auto speed loaders on arm slides. :wink:

[IvanTank]

I agree, way too simple... not fun...

Weapon customization was one of the fun parts of shadowrun.

Even WoD has more complex gun rules than that.

[fistandantilus4....]

[Adarael]

I feel it neccessary to point out that with the inclusion of wide/narrow and long/short bursts, SR4 actually has MORE detailed ranged combat than SR3.

Call a horse a horse: you don't like the combat system, but you're unwilling to accept the fact that certain aspects of it appeal to players and work quite well within the SR4 framework.

Next time, just say you prefer SR3's combat.

[Chandon]

[IvanTank]

Ok, after that last post, it is obvious he is being sarcastic? fully-automatic grenade launchers? yuck...

[Chandon]

What's wrong with fully automatic grenade launchers? It's not like they'd be hard to make in real life - I actually remember seeing a webpage about a real grenade launcher with a burst fire mode.

The rules I'm suggesting happen to provide more play options while getting rid of the unnecessarily long weapons lists that have plagued Shadowrun since day 1. If automatic grenade launchers aren't appropriate for your game group, you wouldn't have to use them.

In fact, it makes more sense that single shot Grenade Launchers use the same skill as Shotguns or Pistols rather than LMGs anyway.

[Butterblume]

[Chandon]

You hardly lose any rule-enforced realism with my range rule, and you save a table lookup. Trying to figure out exactly how far away a target is in meters is hard anyway, and the GM can come up with a yes/no answer to "can I shoot it?" really fast based on the Near/Far range system. The only thing we really lose is range modifiers, and they didn't really change the probabilities of succeeding much anyway.

As for multiple fire modes for automatic weapons, my rules are defaulting to what's usually the most efficient answer for that class of weapon anyway. When you have unlimited ammo and no recoil, why would you ever want to fire a single shot rather than burst? And do you really have trouble visualizing bursts as "fully automatic fire" if that's what you want your character to be doing? It's just simplifying out some complex multi-target rules for fully automatic fire.

I guess not being able to fire in full auto mode does remove the supressing fire option, but that's easy to add back in as follows: You can do suppressing fire with Automatics and Heavy Weapons.

[Mistwalker]

I too prefer to have more options in my ranged weapons combat.

The range modifiers may not change the probability curve much, but the can make it impossible for someone to have any kind of chance of hitting (if dice pool is 0 or lower).

I also like recoil. One of the things it makes people do, is to decide between sound suppressor or gas vent.

[Protagonist]

:down:

That takes all of the flavor out of the weapons in Shadowrun. Aside from all the different types (I can't wait for Arsenal, as weapons are one of my favorite aspects of the game), they're really not that complicated to begin with.

[fistandantilus4....]

I agree that I like the variety for varieties sake personally. And I also prefer to have ammo and recoil for that little spice of realism.

That being said, if you want to shorten up the rules, than that would be a quick way to do it. I think you're going to be putting out a lot more damage if everyone is always firing bursts without any modifiers applying though. People are going to be droppign a lot faster.

[Chandon]

fistandantilus3.0 -

If anything, I think that it'd actually be slightly less lethal due to the lack of all the different standard ammo options. People usually don't have recoil on bursts anyway due to recoil compensation - at most -1 or -2 dice on the second burst in an action phase.

[fistandantilus4....]

short bursts usually are covered, long bursts would be used a lot more. So you're completely eliminating all other types of ammo, making it all just standard? Sorry, didn't catch that first time 'round. And heavy weapons, no recoil, that's going to deal out a ton of damage. Especially when you get to fun things like vindicators. I'm not saying the whole things broke just because of some more extreme examples, jsut somethign to think about. But yeah, removing stuff like EX would go a ways to balancing out lack of recoil.

other modifiers like smartgun link and darkness still applying?

[Chandon]

Yea, the only ammo types that exist are the three ammo types I list above. "Bullets" are equivalent to standard ammo.

Visibility modifiers do apply since they're a generic rule that applies to any ranged action - it's already been standardized so there's no reason to mess with it.

All the different vision augmentation options are a bit much - it would probably make sense to simplify them down as well - but for now I'm just working on firearms themselves so Smartlinks and vision modification to offset visibility penalties would still apply.

[fistandantilus4....]

So is standard rules really slowing you down that much, or are you jsut removing it because you're just not interested in including it? More hassle than it's worth to you I guess I shoud say?

[jervinator]

Honestly, I miss Cannon Companion. I liked that off-camera complexity to get balanced, realistic in-game stats and I didn't find it too cumbersome. I agree this is just too dumbed down.

[Jack Kain]

Your system is fatally flawed, no weapon specializations and it lumps shotguns in with sniper rifles.

Will you reduce all melee weapons into one per skill.
Have a knife deal the same damage as a katana because they are both blades?
Spell casters get to pick from a wide array of spells
Hackers/Technomancers have a load of programs to pick there tactics.

So why take away the gun bunnies ability to pick a weapon that fits there style.

When I was building my Samurai Face. I mulled for a long time over what weapon he'd pick.
There was the classical Aries Predator, the Rugar had its appeal but the SS limitation held me back. I also planned to hold a melee weapon in my other hand so I could switch combat styles freely
The high tech cherry blossom caught my eye too.

In the end I went for the Styler TMP.
He could fire in SA to save ammo or go as far as full auto if needed. A gas vent and a smartlink then he was good to go.

I also figured he could conceal a machine pistol but not an AK.

What about concealiblity. Machine pistols are automatics but are little bigger then pistols.
What about flavor and atmopshere.

Your system lacks flavor and atmosphere.

When the thug pulls out a Heavy Revolver as opposed to a holdout there should be a mechanical difference.

The gunslinger who keeps a streetline in his boot so he can get past MAD detectors.

The choice of weapon a gunslinger picks says alot about there style. The statement made about an Aries Predator is vastly different then that of a light pistol.
You system reduces the choice of a gunfighter, the choice of his soul. To three options.
And don't give any of that, "there different guns but use the same stats" bull. Flavor and atmosphere require that the hand cannon deal more damage then the hold out.

SIgh I don't know I rant, you appear to be standing alone out there.

[Chandon]

Jack Kain -

You basically have two complaints. I'll address them separately.