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Chandon
Shadowrun 4th Edition has much improved on the previous edition by abstracting away unnecessary details in the rules system.

This design strategy has produced massive improvements in a number of areas. The best example is probably the handling of spirits in SR4. Removing the concept of specific spirit types - except in the case of threats like Insect spirits - has made the game much simpler for new players to understand. In addition, the unification of the spirit mechanics by removing the spirit vs. elemental distinction - but not the possession vs. materialization distinction - has made the game even easier to understand. Any gaming group that enjoyed clarity in the difference between a storm spirit, air elemental, slyph, or sky spirit can keep the difference as flavor (explaining a giant flavor difference that is barely even hinted at in the rule books to new players should be no problem).

Shadowrun 4th edition has one blatant flaw - the hold over from previous editions of specific weapons. Having more than 30 different firearms with different stats just in the core book, with more likely to be introduced in future books is far more unnecessary complexity than the game needs.

I suggest the introduction of standard firearms types - one for each weapons skill. I've also decided that ammunition can be abstracted away to avoid unnessisary record keeping (my system avoids both tracking ammunition types and usage).

Other simplifications: The Armor Piercing and Recoil mechanics are unnecessarily complex and have been removed.

Ranges: I've simplified ranges to Near and Far. There are no range penalties. Game masters can trivially use their common sense to determine if a shot is possible.

Optional powers: Each optional power doubles the cost of the weapon. An optional power, if purchased, always applies when using the weapon. Each optional power can only be purchased once.

=== [ New Standard Firearms ]

Pistol - A weapon using the pistols skill. Base Damage = 4P. Range = Near. Avail = 5R. Price = 200¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Shot Rounds, +1 damage, Composite Frame, Concealable

Automatic - A weapon using the automatics skill. Base Damage = 4P. Range = Near. Avail = 8R. Price = 300¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Burst Fire, +1 damage, Concealable

Longarm - A weapon using the longarms skill. Base Damage = 7P. Range = Far. Avail = 7R. Price = 400¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Shot Rounds, +1 Damage, Scope (allows "really far" range), Double Barreled

Heavy Weapon - A weapon using the heavy weapons skill. Base Damage = 7P. Range = Far. Avail = 12F. Always fires long bursts. Price = 600¥
Optional Powers: Smartlink, Burst Fire, Long Bursts, +1 damage

=== [ Ammunition ]
Ammo: Players declare which ammo type they are using as part of their attack declaration. Any ammo can be used in any weapon. Players never "run out" of ammo.

Bullets - This represents any type of bullet.
Explosives - This represents missiles and grenades. The attack has a 10m radius centered on the target.
Elemental Bullets - Elemental bullets have an elemental damage type of the player's choice and do +1 damage. This represents things like Stick & Shock rounds.

I wish I had time to write out a play example showing how much these rules simplify game play and open up options for play groups in describing things in a manner more in line with their style of play, but I've got to go do something important.

I'm sure that someone else can come up with some excellent game play examples showing the increased ease of use and flexibility of this rules variant...
BlueRondo
My sarcasm detector is broken, so I have to ask: is this a joke?
Fortune
To be fair, it does sound like a good system to use for Big Eyes, Small Shadowrun.
Butterblume
I find it oversimplified to a point where it isn't fun anymore.
lorechaser
So, your point is that you don't like SR4, right?

And feel that the spirit rules are oversimplified.

Great. Have a great day! Good thing there's not a rule against posting blatant trolls, or anti-SR4 threads in the SR4 forums....

Zen Shooter01
I'm going to go clean my assault rifles now, just to calm down.
Kyoto Kid
...KK 4.3's (yes she's received a few upgrades) position on this is nobody's going to take her Warhawks out of her hands without a fight. She'll be packing EXEX with auto speed loaders on arm slides. wink.gif
IvanTank
I agree, way too simple... not fun...

Weapon customization was one of the fun parts of shadowrun.

Even WoD has more complex gun rules than that.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Great. Have a great day! Good thing there's not a rule against posting blatant trolls, or anti-SR4 threads in the SR4 forums....

He didn't say he doesn't like SR4, just that he has issues with a specific part, and would llike to discuss an alternative.
Adarael
I feel it neccessary to point out that with the inclusion of wide/narrow and long/short bursts, SR4 actually has MORE detailed ranged combat than SR3.

Call a horse a horse: you don't like the combat system, but you're unwilling to accept the fact that certain aspects of it appeal to players and work quite well within the SR4 framework.

Next time, just say you prefer SR3's combat.
Chandon
QUOTE (Butterblume)
I find it oversimplified to a point where it isn't fun anymore.

Why?

It's not really any different, it's just simpler. It's not like there's something you can do with the more-complex book rules that you can't do with these. In fact, there are things that you can do with these rules that you can't do with the standard rules - like have a burst-fire grenade launcher.

Now, these rules don't directly support a single-shot grenade launcher using the heavy weapons skill, but details like that just slow the game down anyway. For most groups, it's fine that their grenade launcher always fires six shots (a long burst), or uses the pistols skill to shoot. If some specific group would rather it worked some other way, it's easy enough for the game master to rule that it works however the group thinks is best.
IvanTank
Ok, after that last post, it is obvious he is being sarcastic? fully-automatic grenade launchers? yuck...
Chandon
What's wrong with fully automatic grenade launchers? It's not like they'd be hard to make in real life - I actually remember seeing a webpage about a real grenade launcher with a burst fire mode.

The rules I'm suggesting happen to provide more play options while getting rid of the unnecessarily long weapons lists that have plagued Shadowrun since day 1. If automatic grenade launchers aren't appropriate for your game group, you wouldn't have to use them.

In fact, it makes more sense that single shot Grenade Launchers use the same skill as Shotguns or Pistols rather than LMGs anyway.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Chandon)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Dec 2 2006, 10:51 PM)
I find it oversimplified to a point where it isn't fun anymore.

Why?

It's not really any different, it's just simpler. It's not like there's something you can do with the more-complex book rules that you can't do with these. In fact, there are things that you can do with these rules that you can't do with the standard rules - like have a burst-fire grenade launcher.

As we established in Serbitar's What Are Rules For?, realism isn't that important. Still, I need more than two ranges. Also, I need automatic weapons to fire semi-automatic, burst or even full auto fire.

I could accept same damage for every type of weapon, or the loss of AP modifiers. But those two others are not negotiable cyber.gif.
Chandon
You hardly lose any rule-enforced realism with my range rule, and you save a table lookup. Trying to figure out exactly how far away a target is in meters is hard anyway, and the GM can come up with a yes/no answer to "can I shoot it?" really fast based on the Near/Far range system. The only thing we really lose is range modifiers, and they didn't really change the probabilities of succeeding much anyway.

As for multiple fire modes for automatic weapons, my rules are defaulting to what's usually the most efficient answer for that class of weapon anyway. When you have unlimited ammo and no recoil, why would you ever want to fire a single shot rather than burst? And do you really have trouble visualizing bursts as "fully automatic fire" if that's what you want your character to be doing? It's just simplifying out some complex multi-target rules for fully automatic fire.

I guess not being able to fire in full auto mode does remove the supressing fire option, but that's easy to add back in as follows: You can do suppressing fire with Automatics and Heavy Weapons.
Mistwalker
I too prefer to have more options in my ranged weapons combat.

The range modifiers may not change the probability curve much, but the can make it impossible for someone to have any kind of chance of hitting (if dice pool is 0 or lower).

I also like recoil. One of the things it makes people do, is to decide between sound suppressor or gas vent.
Protagonist
:down:

That takes all of the flavor out of the weapons in Shadowrun. Aside from all the different types (I can't wait for Arsenal, as weapons are one of my favorite aspects of the game), they're really not that complicated to begin with.
fistandantilus4.0
I agree that I like the variety for varieties sake personally. And I also prefer to have ammo and recoil for that little spice of realism.

That being said, if you want to shorten up the rules, than that would be a quick way to do it. I think you're going to be putting out a lot more damage if everyone is always firing bursts without any modifiers applying though. People are going to be droppign a lot faster.
Chandon
fistandantilus3.0 -

If anything, I think that it'd actually be slightly less lethal due to the lack of all the different standard ammo options. People usually don't have recoil on bursts anyway due to recoil compensation - at most -1 or -2 dice on the second burst in an action phase.
fistandantilus4.0
short bursts usually are covered, long bursts would be used a lot more. So you're completely eliminating all other types of ammo, making it all just standard? Sorry, didn't catch that first time 'round. And heavy weapons, no recoil, that's going to deal out a ton of damage. Especially when you get to fun things like vindicators. I'm not saying the whole things broke just because of some more extreme examples, jsut somethign to think about. But yeah, removing stuff like EX would go a ways to balancing out lack of recoil.

other modifiers like smartgun link and darkness still applying?
Chandon
Yea, the only ammo types that exist are the three ammo types I list above. "Bullets" are equivalent to standard ammo.

Visibility modifiers do apply since they're a generic rule that applies to any ranged action - it's already been standardized so there's no reason to mess with it.

All the different vision augmentation options are a bit much - it would probably make sense to simplify them down as well - but for now I'm just working on firearms themselves so Smartlinks and vision modification to offset visibility penalties would still apply.
fistandantilus4.0
So is standard rules really slowing you down that much, or are you jsut removing it because you're just not interested in including it? More hassle than it's worth to you I guess I shoud say?
jervinator
Honestly, I miss Cannon Companion. I liked that off-camera complexity to get balanced, realistic in-game stats and I didn't find it too cumbersome. I agree this is just too dumbed down.
Jack Kain
Your system is fatally flawed, no weapon specializations and it lumps shotguns in with sniper rifles.

Will you reduce all melee weapons into one per skill.
Have a knife deal the same damage as a katana because they are both blades?
Spell casters get to pick from a wide array of spells
Hackers/Technomancers have a load of programs to pick there tactics.

So why take away the gun bunnies ability to pick a weapon that fits there style.

When I was building my Samurai Face. I mulled for a long time over what weapon he'd pick.
There was the classical Aries Predator, the Rugar had its appeal but the SS limitation held me back. I also planned to hold a melee weapon in my other hand so I could switch combat styles freely
The high tech cherry blossom caught my eye too.

In the end I went for the Styler TMP.
He could fire in SA to save ammo or go as far as full auto if needed. A gas vent and a smartlink then he was good to go.

I also figured he could conceal a machine pistol but not an AK.

What about concealiblity. Machine pistols are automatics but are little bigger then pistols.
What about flavor and atmopshere.

Your system lacks flavor and atmosphere.

When the thug pulls out a Heavy Revolver as opposed to a holdout there should be a mechanical difference.

The gunslinger who keeps a streetline in his boot so he can get past MAD detectors.

The choice of weapon a gunslinger picks says alot about there style. The statement made about an Aries Predator is vastly different then that of a light pistol.
You system reduces the choice of a gunfighter, the choice of his soul. To three options.
And don't give any of that, "there different guns but use the same stats" bull. Flavor and atmosphere require that the hand cannon deal more damage then the hold out.

SIgh I don't know I rant, you appear to be standing alone out there.
Chandon
Jack Kain -

You basically have two complaints. I'll address them separately.

QUOTE (Jack Kain)
And don't give any of that, "there different guns but use the same stats" bull.


Why not? That's the explanation that was used for spirits for the move to 4th Edition, and that seems to work pretty well. It's not like there are massive differences between weapon stats to begin with - take an Ares Predator IV vs. a Colt Manhunter for example. I mean, even the difference between a Steyr TMP and an Ares Alpha Combat Gun isn't really bigger than the difference between a Storm Spirit and a Slyph.

QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Your system is fatally flawed, no weapon specializations and it lumps shotguns in with sniper rifles.


Shotguns and Sniper Rifles used the same skill anyway. I guess you could say that guns with the flavor of "Shotgun" are covered under Pistols if that makes you feel any better. As for weapon specializations, there's no change. You still take a specialization in something like Shotguns or SMGs, and you get the bonus when the gun you're using has that flavor.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Chandon)
I mean, even the difference between a Steyr TMP and an Ares Alpha Combat Gun isn't really bigger than the difference between a Storm Spirit and a Slyph.

That's pretty hard to say when we have absolutely no way of quantifying the difference between a Storm Spirit and a Sylph. We do know, however, that a Steyr TMP and the Ares Alpha are wielded in a wholly different way and are meant for completely different roles. Much like a survival knife vs. a bastard sword. I'm assuming you're lumping the latter two together as well, so at least it's internally consistent. And it should make for very cartoony games, if that's what you're going after.
Chandon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's pretty hard to say when we have absolutely no way of quantifying the difference between a Storm Spirit and a Slyph.

There was no problem describing the difference between these spirit types in SR3.

If anything, the amount of game flavor you would get for the spirits is more than you get from having a whole bunch of firearm descriptions. I mean, no-one has trouble visualizing the difference between an Assault Rifle and a Machine Pistol and when they're effective - so providing different game statistics is really redundant. At least the rules differentiating the different spirits there was some unique new flavor that wouldn't be available otherwise.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Chandon)
I mean, no-one has trouble visualizing the difference between an Assault Rifle and a Machine Pistol and when they're effective - so providing different game statistics is really redundant.

I have to disagree. Considering how totally fucked up the portrayal of, say, assault rifles is in the majority of media, I doubt more than 50% of the young adult male population of the US can with any accuracy describe how one is effectively used.

If you believe the GM and the players can make sure the world operates reasonably, and that any rules for stuff that the people around the table have any level of understanding of is simply a hindrance, it seems to me storytelling-type games might serve you better than the relatively crunchy SR.
PlatonicPimp
Besides, Even in SR4, different spirits of the same type will vary based on force and what optional powers the summoner chooses.

Under your system, guns of the same type don't vary at all.

So, I'd have to go with a system of "Firearm powers", such as smartlink, long range, increased damage, burst fire, etc. Each gun for a specific skill starts with the same stats and costs the same. Then for each XXX nuyen spent you can add a power to your gun.

This gives you greater customization for each firearm, much like each summoner can more greatly customize their spirits now.

Does that sound in line with your goals?
Chandon
PlatonicPimp -

Yea. That idea is perfect. I'm going to go back and add it in to the initial post.
James McMurray
Huh. I never thought the SR firearms rules (any edition) were too complex. In other words, the change is totally unnecessary and I wouldn't use it. I like variety.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Chandon @ Dec 2 2006, 07:48 PM)
Jack Kain -

You basically have two complaints. I'll address them separately.

QUOTE (Jack Kain)
And don't give any of that, "there different guns but use the same stats" bull.


Why not? That's the explanation that was used for spirits for the move to 4th Edition, and that seems to work pretty well. It's not like there are massive differences between weapon stats to begin with - take an Ares Predator IV vs. a Colt Manhunter for example. I mean, even the difference between a Steyr TMP and an Ares Alpha Combat Gun isn't really bigger than the difference between a Storm Spirit and a Slyph.

You miss or ignore my point.
ITS NOT ABOUT SIMPLY VISUALLIZING THE DIFFERENCE. They have to FEEL the difference.
And if a machine pistol is just as effective as an assault rifle. Then why pick an assault rifle a machine pistol is clearly smaller and you can visualize hiding it much easier then the big gun.
But if all the stats are the same then maybe its just as hard to hide a machine pistol as it is to hide an AK. And the hold-out will be just as hard to hide as the revolver.

Or a hold out just as effective as a heavy revolver. The characters won't feel the difference.

Pulling out a heavy revolver vs a holdout. Won't generate a different reaction if the stats are the same.
Example: In my first game of shadowrun I was a troll. This group of gogangers show up wielding streetline specials. My Troll laughs as he finds this funny. If they had pulled out rugar's he would not have laughed. Because he takes a rugar seriously.
If all pistols had the same stats, I wouldn't have had him laugh. There pistols were just as effective as his so what if they were tiny.

Why not simplfy metatypes well your at it. Take away all there metahuman bonus and make being a dwarf or ork meerly a cosmetic difference.

You can't feel the difference between a revolver and a light pistol if they use the same stats.
Specialization also becomes rather stupid if all gun stats are the same. There's do difference betwen specializing in a revolver or a semi-auto. They use the same stats. You'd end up with PC's who don't bother to decided what kind of pistol they use because it doesn't matter.


Oh and just because they did it to spirits doesn't make it a good idea.
What works for one thing NEVER means its works for another thing. I've looked throught the spirits sections I can see differences. Far more then in your flavorless gun system.

So what if they have 30 some types of guns in the main book how is that complicated? You say it is but I have a feelling not many people agree with you.
Should we start removing all the cyberware and bioware choices because it makes things complicated. Should we rip the gear section in. I don't see how you can possibly keep up with the complications in magic and hacking if the gun rules confound you.

Explain to me, why is it so complicated.
Chandon
Jack Kain -

I think the "Optional Powers" enhancement addresses most of your concerns. It allows different guns to have different stats without all the unnecessary complexity of five pages of gear lists just for guns.
James McMurray
You mean like the core rules do? smile.gif
Garrowolf
Most role playing games have an element of resource management as a part of the enjoyment of the game. Players feel good about the fact that they can have pages and pages of equipment lists that they have to figure out what they have with them and what it does. The mercenary nature of shadowrunners means that they will want to accumulate things. It is sort of a thrill to sort through all those things that you personally would love to have but can't afford.

You might find some players that are used to World of Darkness that wouldn't have a problem with that but I think you will have a lot of loss of feel of the setting if you did.

Good luck
PlatonicPimp
There should be design flaws that half the price of the weapon, such as lesser damage, or unconcealable.

Another power should be ceramic, so it can pass metal detectors.

Anyway, I like weird equipment lists, but I could see this being used as a type of gun design guideline. So while I won't be using these rules for shadowrun ever, I might adopt something similar for Tri-Stat.

I think now is the time to come clean if this post is meant as a sarcastic jab at the SR4 spirit rules.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Chandon @ Dec 2 2006, 09:54 PM)
Jack Kain -

I think the "Optional Powers" enhancement addresses most of your concerns. It allows different guns to have different stats without all the unnecessary complexity of five pages of gear lists just for guns.

No, no it doesn't. Guns aren't spirits. Will you simplify armor next?

How many pages are devoted to cyberware or bioware? How many are devoted to hacking software?
How many pages are devoted to spells?
I find nothing unncessary or complex about five pages of gear just for guns.

If they just listed the stat tables for each gun and then went into the discriptions it only take up a couple of pages, before the falor discriptions.


The only time you have to look up the discriptions is with accessories. But the discriptions are nice to get a feel for the weapon.

Tell me do you think having a longsword deal 1d8 and critical on a 19-20 while a scimitar deals 1d6 and criticals on an 18-20 complicated?

EDIT: man alot of posters while I typed this.
Anyway Garrowolf, you make the point I had about flavor and atmosphere perfectly.
Eleazar
Chandon:

You have failed to convince me that the firearms rules even need to be simplified. Your whole system is built on the premise that the current firearm rules are too complicated. I have yet to have this be the case, and I am new to Shadowrun. I think hacking and spellcasting could use simplification way before firearms ever needed to be simplified. I am not saying anything needs simplifying; I am just saying if one were to simplify something, it doesn't make sense to skip the things that are more complex. Out of all the options available you chose something that in comparison is rather uncomplicated.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Eleazar)
Chandon:

You have failed to convince me that the firearms rules even need to be simplified. Your whole system is built on the premise that the current firearm rules are too complicated. I have yet to have this be the case, and I am new to Shadowrun. I think hacking and spellcasting could use simplification way before firearms ever needed to be simplified. I am not saying anything needs simplifying; I am just saying if one were to simplify something, it doesn't make sense to skip the things that are more complex. Out of all the options available you chose something that in comparison is rather uncomplicated.

You and I are so much alike, Eleazer.
I started shadowrun back in october. Before that my only experence was with the sega genesis game.
I've played seven sessions, A Parliament of Thieves through An Ounce of Prevention a few 1 karma parahunts before or after a couple of those runs.
I don't find the gun system complicated either.

Garrowolf
If you wanted to be REALLY simple you could have three health boxes representing getting successfully hit three times and drop all damage codes. Then the only difference between firearms and melee weapons is range - right here versus over there!
Slump
I think the reason why alot of people find the firearms rules not complicated is the nature of equipment. Sure, you have alot of choices, but after you've made your choice, you only have to remember one set of stats. It doesn't matter in-combat if there are 100 different guns with different stats, because you're only using one of them.

Compare to hacking, where you do have to use different 'guns' (programs).
Garrowolf
Well if you wanted lots of guns choices you could have several guns with different rounds in each, choose your weapon by ammo, and New York reload.
Cain
QUOTE
You have failed to convince me that the firearms rules even need to be simplified.


All right, let's go for a point-by-point. I don't know enough about guns to debate the "feel" of them-- I couldn't tell you the difference between a machine pistol and a SMG, for example-- so let me stick with one I can work with: Ammo.

Tracking ammo is perhaps one of the biggest bean-counting excercises you can get into. Not only do you have to track how many shots you've fired, you need to separate out the bursts from the single-shots, count how many were fired in which burst, track how many are left in your gun, what type of ammo you're carrying in which clip, etc, etc. Clearly, there's a need for simplification

Now, we can go they way Chandon suggests: you never run out of bullets. Personally, I don't like that, since the risk of running out of ammo is part of the tension of battle. I'd suggest, instead, that each firefight uses up one clip of ammo from each gun used. These bullets can be considered to be "John Woo" shots, shots that miss people, but hit windows, blow holes in furniture, and so on. Special effect stuff.
Jack Kain
Now thats expensive, I've gone entire runs with a single 30 round clip.
eidolon
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Great. Have a great day! Good thing there's not a rule against posting blatant trolls, or anti-SR4 threads in the SR4 forums....


Everyone, please leave moderation of the forums to the moderators.

The original post was neither a troll, nor an anti-SR4 thread.

I'll also point out that a member has posted an alternative set of rules that likely he has spent time and effort creating. Please do him the respect of discussing his rules rather than attacking his personage, even passively. Thank you.


Drtyrm
QUOTE (Chandon)
Ranges: I've simplified ranges to Near and Far. There are no range penalties. Game masters can trivially use their common sense to determine if a shot is possible.


Why this change? (Also, determining range by common sense sounds suspiciously like the dreaded GM FIAT to me!)
Mistwalker
What is the range for Near, and the range for Far?
Is it always the same, or does it vary by weapon type?

Like others, I am having problems with having a hold-out pistol do the same damage as a heavy pistol, and having the same range.
Konsaki
If the only way you can hit the target is with a ICBM, then it is obviously in the 'FAR' option. Anything else is in the 'NEAR' option. silly.gif
Mercurialrogue
Chandon,

Interesting rules ideas, would probably need some small tweeks but essentially a good idea before the playtesting stage.

I would mention that as a player and GM I perfer the long list of guns and ammo types. I find that although flavor isn't essentially lost if you were to use your proposed system you do lose out on other factors that are why I enjoy SR.

The lists are nice because the give standard names, something that with the following pages descriptions and pictures gives a little more active imagination attention to the players and GM's.

The flavor text of the descriptions would be lost. I personally enjoy learning things about the weapons through them. (i.e. the trend that corperate security teams are switching to the FN HAR, no I didn't have to look in the book for that, though I did just go to look at it to make sure I'm not making an ass outta myself)

The list, when used in character creation, is almost like shopping for new toys! Instead of using (just) concept and advantage, then determining stats and later giving flavor you can run down the lists of stats, pictures, and descriptions to figure what would suit you best. Hell, I've chosen weapons based on looks alone. I've carried and gone through considerable trouble IG for weapons (like katanas) that I may never use on a run because of their look and heritage. Its true you can create items in the game like Katanas (or have similar properties) but you cannot replicate the history, story or image of the weapon. Images are sexy.

Note: Images of me are not.

I suppose though you would save time by not flipping through numerous pages to get your weapons it wouldn't save on prep-time. You would really have to stat up a couple gun examples anyway (who knows it might only be a couple items less then the actual SR gun sheets themselves) just so the GM wouldn't have to spend his time doing it.

biggrin.gif
mfb
it burns! oh god, it BURNS!
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