 Simplified Firearms, Removing unnessissary complex details. |
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 Dec 4 2006, 03:29 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115  |
We'd lose too much if the design system was primary at the expense of specific gun names ("examples"). I'll live if gun design rules never get printed - it's easy enough to just make new guns up based on the existing ones like I did for my complex ammo rules. On the other hand, if the books didn't say "Ares Predator" or "FN HAR" anywhere, Shadowrun would be much less cool than it is now. On the other hand, gun design rules would be cool, and using the gun design rules as a way of compressing the list of guns would also potentially be a good idea. |
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Dec 4 2006, 03:39 PM
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#102
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Holy SHIT! I can't beleive no one caught this...or at least no one specifically pointed it out.
<emphasis mine>
This is the pinnacle of hilarity... |
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Dec 4 2006, 03:43 PM
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#103
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You mean you've never used buckshot to snipe?
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Dec 4 2006, 04:00 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Nahh...the range on it is just too short because I don't have a 12x scope mounted on it. Once I get that Leupold for Christmas, look for me dropping ducks at 800 meters...
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Dec 4 2006, 04:08 PM
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#105
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...hear hear. Much of KK4.3's concept is centered around her Bushido Cowgirl style. Her Warhawks are styled after the RL Blackhawk which has a decidedly wild west look and feel. It wouldn't be the same if she packed a black lettered "Generic" (remember those products?) "PISTOL". Similar for my hacker Violet. She has several different pistols for different situations, from the palm size "Lemon Squeezer" for those discrete affairs to the Ubiquitous Ares Predator (loaded with EXEX) for heavier field action. |
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Dec 4 2006, 04:43 PM
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#106
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
And I have a character who uses Aresx Predators exclusively preceisely because the market is flooded with them. Because of that they are cheap, everone has one, and he throws his guns away after every mission. He buys predators in bulk form his fixer. Hell, he's sure that bums pick the guns he throws away up, rob a quicky mart with them, get caught, the guns to to evidence, where they are "lost" to some cops black market contacts, and eventualy he buys them again.
But that was the point of this thread. Flavor should not be sacrificed for (virtual) simplification. |
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Dec 4 2006, 06:22 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
The problem is that, without a huge range of damage codes, there's not a lot of variation available.
You have: Damage. Range. Clip. Rate of Fire. Concealability. You can play with those numbers, but you can't adjust damage all that much - holdouts have a range, light pistols, heavy, etc. So you're down to playing with range (only a couple guns do that, but it's cool when they do), clip (most guns do that, it makes a huge difference to me. However, a lot of people seem to abstract ammo, which defeats that) and RoF. I think the designers did a pretty good job, with the exception of maybe the Predator and the Alpha always being the weapons of choice in their range. I have Ultramodern Firearms for d20 modern. The fluff in there is *awesome*. But it doesn't have any *mechanical* bits. And I don't think it can. The only thing they did to add it was create a instability mechanic, so that you could add features, that also added risk. Hopefully Arsenal will have a system of adding bits. And really, every gun designed should boil down to "a heavy pistol with X added and Y taken out" for balance. But the fluff is important in between.... |
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Dec 4 2006, 06:46 PM
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#108
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's not what we'd be losing though. Currently, each weapon has a type and a write-up that includes damage, AP, Mode, RC, Cost, Availability, and so on. The type determines the range, and that's on p. 139, and the rest of their vital statistics are on p. 309. And what' the result? We don't have any more weapons options than Counter Strike. Sure, it's Shadowrun Flavored because the CT get Ares Alpha and the FN HAR while the Terrorists get the AK-97 and the HK XM30 (instead of the M4A1 Colt and Steyr Aug for the CT and AK-47 and SG552 for the Terrorists) - but seriously who the fuck are we kidding? By shifting the Damage Code (6P, -1 AP) to the Range Table we'd be freeing up two columns of space in the weapons descriptions. And holy crap, we'd be able to put those to work. Imagine for the moment that we took that 2 columns of space and turned it over to a "similar models" segment. The Ares Alpha could have similar models like the Shiawase No Dachi and the Amazonian made M115 Assassino. The FN HAR could have similar models like the Swiss manufactured Riposta Arma Veloce 68 (RAV-68) or the knock-off Ubangi-4 from the Central African Empire. In short, we could seriously have:
And we'd get a weapon design system out the other end. Rules are at their best when they can be extrapolated from intrinsically. Whenever you have "specific weapons", or sreally specific anything, that extrapolation can't happen. At least, not easily. General rules kick specific rules in the ass in every way all the time. They are easier to use, are useful for more things, allow for more depth of flavor text and rock the house all over the place. Seriously. -Frank |
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Dec 4 2006, 08:06 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
Frank Trollman -
Moving the similar weapon stats to a single table (like the range table) would work fine, and if that resulted in their being a "Similar Weapons" column, that would be *awesome*. I'm just pointing out that whoever's doing the typesetting needs to make *damn sure* that what happened to Spirits doesn't happen to firearms - we need to gain a "Similar Weapons" column rather than losing the "Weapon Name" column. |
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Dec 4 2006, 08:17 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
There are two counterpoints that need to be considered. Some people are too lazy to actually figure out how to derive the specific rules from the general rules. It's like memorizing formulas versus deriving them in math - some people seem to like to memorize the formulas. The second thing is something that I consider to be more relevant - a continuous system has an obvious relative maximum whereas a descrete system may have multiple relative maxima based on your optimization parameters. Err, I mean that it's easier to min-max a design system than a weapon list... i.e. no-one would ever chose the Ares Viper Slivergun if you could build it using design rules because they could build a weapon that only fired ExEx ammo instead. |
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Dec 4 2006, 08:41 PM
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#111
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
There is always an optimum level of complexity, complex enough to make it worthwhile but not so complex it is wasting time. Firearms are exactly at that place to me.
Now if you want to give your character a "RandomArms X11" and use the rules for a Pred 4 I don't see any problems. It would be no different to saying you have an "anodised Pred 4", it is just fluff. |
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Dec 4 2006, 09:28 PM
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#112
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I would have included that the Ares Viper is also capable of Burst fire. Yeah the target gets an additional two dice to his body + Armour pool, but several net hits means they usually end up having to shake down double digit DV. Another addition I would make to this list is the Super Warhawk. You may only have 6 shots (so you carry two with a couple of speed loaders) but each is at a base 6DV and -2AP . Loaded with EXEX makes it quite formidable (+2/-2) for something you can conceal under your longcoat. It is also certain to at least knock down (if not out) the oppos when loaded with Gel Rounds. Disadvantages, no barrel mounted accessories & single shot (though the RL weapon it is patterned after is a double action revolver). |
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Dec 4 2006, 09:32 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Both very good points. I was only really pulling the list from memory off the top of my head, and wasn't trying to be too complete. I also never looked too closely at the slivergun. I realised afterwards I missed the super warhawk, but couldn't be arsed to add it.
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Dec 5 2006, 02:02 AM
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#114
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
For gun DESIGN, 3G3 from BTRC is about right for me. I have a thing for exponents and logarithms :D For play, I thin the current stats are the bare minimum I'd go with, though the rules on their use... well maybe those could be tightened up. |
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Dec 5 2006, 09:15 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Let's not confuse tightening with clarifications. Tightening the rules is removing GM discretion in matters, clarifications is removing holes and clearing up ambiguous text.
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Dec 6 2006, 02:41 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
By tightening, I meant fixing it up in such a way that they won't fall apart under use. Ever drive a car with loose lug nuts? But that's just a miscommunication; I think we're on the same wavelength.
You are correct that there always needs to be room for GM discretion. And the current rules are not bad but sometimes a simpler alternative would be nice. Hence, this thread. |
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