 are spirits effected by electrical damage? |
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 Dec 5 2006, 04:19 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517  |
I'm trying to figure out if spirits would be effected by stun from eletrical attacks. Does it say anything about it anywhere?
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Dec 5 2006, 04:36 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
it doesn't say they are not.
the default is that things are affected by electrical damage. therefore, spirits are affected by electrical damage. |
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Dec 5 2006, 04:51 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
So shoot spirits with stick and shock ammo?
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Dec 5 2006, 05:23 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
sure. ignores half their hardened armor, has a nice base damage even in a crappy gun, might knock 'em out, and if they are fully stunned they are disrupted and can't come back for quite some time. stick n shock is an excellent way to deal with spirits. |
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Dec 5 2006, 09:06 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Well there is a mention of the possibility that electrical damage not effecting someone that is levitating depending on what the GM decides in the book. It also says that spirits usually float even if they are staying clse to the ground (ie they are not subject to gravity).
Now I was thinking not because the shock stuff is overloading our CNS, but they don't have one. They also list vehicles and drones and such as to not having stun tracks so not everything has one. I don't think that the electrical damage would halve the impact because it is specifically a normal damage type and not magical. I was wondering if there was anything actually stated about it in one of the books, maybe even an earlier edition. |
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Dec 5 2006, 09:29 AM
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#6
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
While it may be normal, non-magical damage, it s also considered an elemental effect, and Spirits are specifically vulnerable to these types of attacks. |
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Dec 5 2006, 09:41 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I would agree about the elemental effect if it was magical but it doesn't fall into the list on pg 288. Elemental is not in the list of magical effects that the immunity doesn't work against.
Besides by that logic nearly all weapons are elemental because they are made of Earth and Metal elements. Only spirits of fire and water have the other element as a weakness. |
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Dec 5 2006, 09:47 AM
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#8
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I´d spare the spirit from the knockdown-test, but else use standard rules. As it is a non-magical attack, the immunity power works.
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Dec 5 2006, 09:50 AM
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#9
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
There are two angles: Flavour Consistency and RAW. I think you can make a case with both for electrical damage not affecting spirits in the same way. Street Magic makes it explicit that materialised forms of spirits do not possess internal organs, nervous system, etc. So it's counter-intuitive that the stunning component of electrical damage would affect them and is a prime candidate for GM judgement call. But going by RAW, they will usually be immune to electrical attacks. The description for Immunity to Normal Weapons is explicit in saying that it
So stick and shock is still going to have a difficult time having much effect. At best, after the spirit has rolled it's normal defenses, any remaining damage is resisted with Body + Willpower + half impact (3), which gives Freddy the Force Four Fire Elemental 12 dice to shake off the secondary effects so automatic success on the threshold three target.
So for me personally as a GM, I have materialised spirits ignore electrical damage for setting consistency. After all the same question would apply in principle to whether a Fire Elemental was immune to fire which I also consider to be the case. But going by RAW, spirits are still more or less immune to electrical damage. Least ways you're far worse off than loading up with regular ammo and boosting the DV with burst fire and good shooting than you are using stick and shock. The grey area is magically inflicted electrical damage. The spirit is explicitly not immune to damage from spells. Personally I allow this to affect spirits unless there is an obvious reason not to, e.g. Lightening Bolt vs. a Storm Spirit. But I have no problem letting a spirit ignore secondary effects like electrical stun damage. I can't back immunity to magical electrical damage up with RAW, but when I've described some twisted city spirit formed of iron girders and steel wire fingers lurching towards the party, it violates sense that the electricity isn't just going to run over and through it in a suitably Big Trouble in Little China manner. :D Hope this helps, -K. |
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Dec 5 2006, 02:46 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
It might seem a little silly for you to be able to tase a spirit and knock it out, but you could easily explain it as the electricity disrupting the materialized spirit's aura.
While it might make sense to make spirits immune to electricity from a realism standpoint, what is the in-game justification? Is it that electricity hurts spirits too easily? That -half armor IS pretty good against them, it basically cuts away their advantage from immunity to normal weapons. But acid, fire, and cold have those same effects too... If you're making electricity not work based on it being too effective, you have to worry about the other elemental damage types which are no less effective. Spirits can't be immune to all of them, can they? The only real argument for making spirits immune to electricity is a sense of realism, which is not an asset when making house rules. You can't change the game based on realism, because the whole damn system is unrealistic! Changing it just eviscerates carefully tested and balanced rules, leaving you with a much wore game overall. |
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Dec 5 2006, 03:49 PM
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#11
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I mostly certainly can change the game based on realism. Electricity has its stunning effect because it overwhelms the human nervous system. It is made explicitly clear in Street Magic that even human-appearing spirits do not actually possess this. So while it's possible to make fluff justifications if you wish, such as where you say that electricity disrupts a spirit's materialised form, I see no need to try and come up with such justifications. My spirit descriptions are frequently very colourful. I have storm spirits that are virtually seething monsters of lightening and thunder. Am I really going to let electricity damage have it writhing on the floor? As I pointed out above, the same argument applies to even more counter-intuitive situations. Is your fire elemental immune to fire damage? If you say that he isn't then it's going to seem silly when players hold it back with a flame-thrower. But if you say that he is then you've just "eviscerated carefully tested and balanced rules" according to you. There are numerous cases where the GM needs to make sensible judgement calls like this. I consider electrical stun damage to be one of them. And in this particular instance the affect on game balance is a long way from eviscerating because by RAW, spirits do have their immunity to normal weapons apply against electrical attacks and even against the magical ones, most spirits will be able to muster the three successes on a Willpower + Body roll to shrug off the stun effect, even though you are denying them the + 1/2 impact in your game. So the change is minimal and fits fluff. |
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Dec 5 2006, 06:02 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I might leave the stunning effect out (based on the lack of a CNS) but keep the half-armor effect in, as it's part of the elemental damage being done. If you bake up a spirit with a flamethrower, hit it with a firehose, or trap it in a windtunnel while you dump a dumptruck full of sand into the intakes (okay, I'm reaching here, but you get my point), it's going to be taking elemental damage, and most GMs wouldn't have a problem saying that "normal weapons" doesn't include a gout of flame, blast of water, or getting torn up in a sandstorm. Jamming a loose power line into the side of a spirit (or hitting it with a SnS round) ought to fall into the same category.
Stick'n'shock ammo is one of those things that I've limited a bit in my games by making it something that's only available as a type of shotgun ammunition. When fired from a full-auto weapon or tucked away in a character's holdout, I feel it creates balance problems. With the Remington 990 being the only weapon (so far, and in my game) that can load it, I really don't have a problem with it. It may well be that allowing a machine pistol full of SnS to go up against a spirit results in instant spirit-B-gone, in which case the GM of a game should make adjustments accordingly. However, I've really not had problems with SnS when it's not compatible with weapons that can also go burst or auto to jack up that baseline 6S(e)/(x0.5) damage code. |
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Dec 5 2006, 07:42 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Been playing Quest For Glory 2 lately? |
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Dec 6 2006, 06:44 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Okay so there is no actual rules some place that I have missed about it.
I'm going to not use the half impact because it is magical armor and not physical armor. There is no actual armor there. It is just using the same game mechanic. The logic behind halving impact is that the armor was not designed to stop it unless you have non conductivity added. Magical armor is not actually there, it is just the effect of their natures. If they had weakness: electrical then halving the impact or the armor in general would make sense. |
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Dec 6 2006, 06:58 AM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So will you make the same ruling in regards to armor provided via Spell (or any other Magical source)?
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Dec 6 2006, 06:59 AM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
In all other editions of Shadowrun, Spirits (and Elementals) have been vulnerable to Elemental Attacks of all types. I am very surprised that there is nothing of the like in SR4.
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Dec 6 2006, 08:03 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Actually yes. I tend to think the same about the armor spell. It uses the same game mechanic as armor but it works through something closer to a force field. There is no material for it to conduct through. It is trying to keep it from making contact.
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Dec 6 2006, 12:00 PM
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#18
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Am I really in a minority of GM's on this one? I'm kind of surprised. Aside from RAW supporting it, It makes perfect flavour sense to me for spirit immunity to apply to normal elemental attacks. Earth elemental made of stone being quite so bothered about burning itself with matches as a human? Storm Spirit of formed of lightening and thunder cloud being phased by taser darts? I note that your examples were all pretty heavy examples, like jamming loose power lines into their sides, or trapping them in giant sand-blasters. These are fine, high DV, sustained damage attacks and will overcome most spirit's Immunity Power because of that alone. You don't have to remove their immunity to make such attacks work. But conversely if you do remove their immunity, you make them more vulnerable than a human with an armoured jacket. Okay, they might have human samurai-like Body to resist with, but essentially your Force 7 Beast Spirit now has no armour against elemental attacks. I'm surprised your players don't routinely carry flamethrowers as instant Spirit-B-Gone. ;)
I've had to go back and check this and it turns out that I'm wrong in how I've been playing. RAW as written does support increasing DV value for stick and shock by automatic fire as it simply says "increase the DV of the attack" rather than "weapon." But I had always replaced the DV of the attack with the Stick and Shock after the scaling, so Stick and Shock just did its 6(e) damage as always. I'm going to stick with that as it's a quick way of keeping balance. Even by RAW though, It's not going to result in spirit massacres as it doesn't bypass their armour any better than any other type of ammo and most spirits will shrug off the Will + Bod + 1/2 Armour (3) stun test without noticing because that isn't going to increase even if you're emptying an entire Ingram White Knight of SnS into the thing. :D Spirits rock! |
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Dec 6 2006, 12:07 PM
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#19
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Hmmm. I disagree with you there. Well, I agree with your view on spirit's armour simply using the same mechanics, but I don't think armour is the same thing. If anything, you could make the reverse argument with it and say it confers less defense against electricity damage because all it is is a force field that slows down / impedes attacks. You can see that limiting damage from normal bullets, but so long as the stick and shock hits, it's going to glue on and do the same damage regardless of if it hit fast or hit slow. I suppose you could visualise it clinging on for a moment until it's overcome by the armour spell and goes flying off again like rocket propelled bubble-gum. ;) |
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Dec 6 2006, 01:00 PM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In previous editions, elemental attacks explicitly halved a spirit's immunity. Now, they explicitly use half impact armor against everything, which has the same effect as halving the spirit's immunity.
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Dec 6 2006, 03:11 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
People are making up a lot of stuff about spirits having force fields or being able to become ethereal at will. Neither of those assumptions are supported by the RAW. When spirits materialize, they become physical beings. The can de-materialize using the materialize power, but that requires an action. They don't phase in and out to avoid attacks like those stupid ghosts from Matrix 2. There is also nothing to support that their immunity works like a forcefield which repels things, that's totally confabulated.
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Dec 6 2006, 03:42 PM
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#22
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm not sure if I'm included in with the confabulators. I did comment on the armour spell issue as an aside. But I'll take a stab at this one, anyway. I've never taken the Immunity to Normal Weapons of Materialising spirits as actual armour, though mechanically I treat it the same way. How I do interpret it in game depends on the spirit. If it's a water elemental or a wind spirit, then I may well say that the bullets have no noticeable effect as they pass straight through the material of its body. I'd have absolutely no problem saying that stick and shock (to go with this thread's favoured example) just falls off. If it were a squat little earth elemental made of stone, I'd probably delight in describing all the little sparking wads of SnS, glued to it. Low enough force that it can feel some of the damage, you might see it stop and start slapping them off it, but normally they just become decoration. Basically, though I use the same mechanics, there are a wide variety of ways I'll portray the effect. (And Beast Spirits are just tough motherfuckers, that don't have the sense to realise they're hurt. :D ) |
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Dec 6 2006, 04:35 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
It has become increasingly apparent to me that dumpshock is becoming a breeding ground for confabulation. This has to stop.
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Dec 6 2006, 05:09 PM
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#24
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well the mods have been trying. ;) (I suspect the original poster doesn't actually know what confabulation is). |
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Dec 6 2006, 06:10 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Well, no, you see - if you successfully shoot a force 6 spirit (i.e. one net success or better) with stick & shock ammo, then it has to make a damage resistance test. If you shoot it with normal ammo, you'll need about a half-dozen net successes before the spirit needs to make a damage resistance test. (Assuming a single shot in both instances.) Stick & Shock is significantly better - (bod 6 + armor 6) vs. (6s+net successes) or (bod 6 + armor 12) vs. [(base damage + net successes) or zero (if base damage + net successes <= 12)] You can surpass stick & shock's capabilities if you're using a heavy weapon, burst fire, and/or EX-EX ammo - but that's all harder and more expensive to obtain, less versitile, and much harder to sneak around with. |
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