A munchkin's best friend?, Balancing Sniper rifles Options

[jervinator]

I know quite a few people that have taken a REAL liking to sniper rifles, sometimes over the ever-popular Panther Assault Cannon. A little looking revealed that, unlike Assault Cannons, there are fewer restrictions on the use of Sniper rifles in SR4 than there are IRL. Ammo is easier to get, the DV and AP are quite nice, and under SR4, the weight and lack of concealability are not a real issue any more.

First, I must point out that many sniper rifles used in reality are simply accurized versions of other rifles. In SR terms, they are Sport or Assault rifles with better tolerances. What SR4 calls a Sniper Rifle is what real life would likely call an Anti-Material Rifle. Long barrel, large bullet (.50 BMG, 14.7mm, etcetera), bipod... and rather unusable unless the firer is prone.

This prompted the following house rules for Sniper Rifles:

- Any attack made with a Sniper Rifle suffers a -2 dice penalty unless a Complex Action is spent to drop prone and rest the weapon on it's bipod or similar rest. Without the stabilizing effect of an appropriate rest, natural tremors in the human musculature interact badly with the floating barrel or some other detrimental thing that is equivalent in game terms.

- Sniper Rifle ammo is 10x cost and +4 Availability. Large caliber rounds manufactured to specs sufficient to maintain accuracy at extreme ranges are neither cheap nor easy to find. I don't think 200 :nuyen: and availability 6R for normal .50 BMG rounds (or their 2070 equivalent) is unreasonable.

[Charon]

[warrior_allanon]

this is why my team specced out a panther assault cannon in 3ed as a sniper rifle, more damage also

[ixombie]

My big question is how you know that sniper rifles IRL are harder to get than in SR4... There's no availability roll IRL, so it's not like you can make a direct comparison. And pardon me for being skeptical, but I doubt that either you or I know jack about the black market.

Anyway, it's the 2070's. It's a very very different world. How things are today shouldn't have much bearing on how they are in Shadowrun. FanPro wrote the future world and it is how they say it is - the fact that it's nothing like today is, well, DUH.

Now, you might have a point if you think that they're more available than they should be, regardless of realism. That's just a matter of opinion though. I personally like how you can start out with the Walther. Used to be if you wanted to make a sniper char, you had to start with a boring-ass sport rifle. Now, you can actually make your sniper have a real sniper's weapon.

Of course, a huge reason why sniper rifles are more available in SR4 is that the gap between sniper and regular rifles has been vastly reduced. They've recognized the distinction that you point out between sniper and anti material rifles. Used to be the only sniper rifles availble were anti material, they did 14S damage compared to a sport rifle's 9S. Now, they do +1 DV with extra AP, not such a big difference. That level of upgrade doesn't mean they've made the jump from sniper rifle to anti-material rifle.

[kzt]

You can also get rid of the stupid "telescopic sights reduce the range" idiocy if you want to make hard shots hard to do in the game.

[jervinator]

Let us think about think for a moment about what a Sniper rifle really is.

In SR4 as written, it is an expensive, hard to obtain weapon with an AP of -3; 2 points better than other rifles. And ammo is no costlier than for a Predator or Uzi which makes it a bit better than the Panther. Actually, they are on par with an HMG except for the fire mode. Last I knew, HMGs didn't fire 5.56 or even 7.62.

IRL, a sniper rifle is a piece of precision equipment. It can be either highly accurate OR battle-worthy (as a runner would use it) but must trade one for the other. And the rifles that actually have better penetration than a normal rifle (like the SR4 ones do) tend to fire bigger bullets. Actually, the PJSS Elephant rifle seems to refute even that!

Is there a link between MOA accuracy and armor piercing ability? Would such a precise weapon perform the same with cheap ammo or would it require a better bullet to get the most out of it? Could if fire accurately at such long ranges without proper bracing, or would it's accuracy and effective range be reduced considerably when shoulder-fired?

As for firing prone, I thought that was the assumed position for a sniper rifle anyways. To my mind, shoulder-firing a sniper rifle is like one-handing an assault rifle.

[toturi]

If you want to Realism the sniper rifle in SR4, you are welcome to House Rule so. Just remember some assault rifles are restricted, not forbidden. So if you got the right license, you are allowed to have it. If you want to be a Realism ass about it and say that the cops are going to hassle someone with a ® Assault Rifle as much as someone with a (F) sniper rifle, you are welcome to house rule it as you see fit.

You will do well to remember that RL is not SR and vice versa. It is a trap a lot of GMs I've seen fall into. I've found that "Realism" doesn't add much to the game unless the players enjoy this sort of thing. If they like "Realism", then House Rule it all you want.

[Jack Kain]

AP is more about the design of the gun and the ammo it uses. They simplified ammo by having it all use a universal cost because in the long and even short run the price differences don't really matter.

Lets look at the big nasty PJSS Elephant Rifle.
9P and AP -1. But wait single shot and its ammo capacity is 2. One in each barrel
Just like the classic elephant rifle seen in movies. It can fire both barrels at once for a +1 DV.
Or it can skip that and fire twice before having to be reloaded.

An FN HAR with some shockpads.
6P AP -1,
Could fire in a short narrow burst at no penalty (with the shock pads for the second shot)
DV 8P AP -1. The same is true if numerious assault rifles in that category. One less then the dreaded 9P elephant rifle. Plus the assault rifles have full-auto options and what not.

The rugar sport rifle has less pore but a higher ammo capacity 5(m) but being muzzle loaded it takes a complex action to reload. And a burst firing assault rifle will deal more damage.

Now lets look at the big bad sniper rifles.
First we have the Ranger Arms SM-4:
First read this passage.
"Its barrel is highly sensitive: if bumped after being assembled(which tends to happen
when it’s being used in standard combat situations outside its intended sniper role),
a –1 dice pool modifier is applied to all of its attack rolls."

Now its availibilty is 16F so it can be hard to get a hold off. Thankfully it collapses into a suit case otherwise you could easily be stopped by Lone Star and in deep crap.

The walter is easier to get a hold of but less powerful, once again an assault rifle can deal more damage by firing in narrow bursts. (and with the right mods can be doen with out penalty).


Personally I'd imposse a hefty penalty (beyond the -3) for shooting a foe while engaged in melee.

[Garrowolf]

kzt - what problem do you have with the range and scope thing? And how would you change it?

[jervinator]

KZT - I almost forgot...I thought the point of telescopic sights was to reduce the efective range, at least for purposes of aiming. Obviously they won't increase the maximum range but they will allow accurate fire out to that maximum if properly calibrated by a competent weaponsmith.

[Jack Kain]

As I understand it the purpose of telescopic sight. Is thus, you take a complex action to lock on and remove the penalty for firing at long range.

[Lord Ben]

What exactly is the problem you're having with sniper rifles? That they kill people quickly? Because that's a feature of SR4, not just sniper rifles. Things die easy, even to pistols.

Or is it that the players are doing the killing from long range?

Or you just don't think it's realistic?

[Charon]

[Clyde]

Once, in an SR3 game, I saw a player who had his character use a sniper rifle for everything. Fighting in alleys, indoors, short ranges, it didn't matter. In SR3, sniper rifles did 14S damage and they were head and shoulders above even a burst fire assault rifle.

I've never seen that kind of lunacy in an SR4 game - mostly because Sniper Rifles use the Longarms Skill which a lot of people ignore. Those who do grab longarms often use a shotgun at close range, especially the burst fire one. In any event 7P -4AP isn't far enough out of line that I've seen someone use it when another weapon would make more "real world" sense.

Of course, if you think your munchkin's are abusing some aspect of the rules (and you happen to be the GM) there's always this simple solution: (ab)use the offending rule right back at them! If you've got a guy who uses a sniper rifle inside because there's some kind of mechanical advantage, then go ahead and give all your security guards sniper rifles. Have somebody hold up a Stuffer Shack with one. Say he hid it under an extra long trench coat. Make sure there are Sniper Rifle drive by's. When your munchkin (I presume it's just one) objects just say: "it's in the rules. If you can do it, so can they." Fiscally minded munchkins will take the Sniper Rifles off your dead goons - remember to apply the -20% deduction in street value for a market glut (don't they know everybody's got a sniper rifle now? Who will their fixer sell it to?).

No need to go around houseruling the game. Or arguing abuot real life. Your problem is a dude who's playing a game with you and somebody's being a dick about it. Address it at that level and you can fix it. Go all passive aggressive by changing the rules and you're just cheating.

[Charon]

[Fortune]

[kzt]

[Fortune]

So how do you handle Vision Magnification then? Especially for the shorter ranged firearms.

[Kesslan]

Also on the subject of firing from the shoulder, thats not only realistic, it's quite possible. Though at extreme range you'd sure as hell notice scope wavering compared to being prone. The prone position is by far the most stable (and thus why it's the most used for ANY long range shooting involving rifles of any type).

However firing from a proper kneeling stance you can hit just fine, and it's not much of a streatch to pop off a shot or two even from standing. There are very specific stances for firing rifles at range. Prone being the easiest, and standing being the hardest accuracy wise.

Again though that does not make it impossible. Also close range 'ranged combat' with a sniper rifle is really no harder than with an assault rifle. And in most cases isnt too much different from SMGs, except the latter is shorter, and wont get the barrel into awkward positions which is a real posiblity. (Infact there are certain stairwell designs that specifically came about to foil people with rifles comming up the stairs as opposed to going down the stairs. These are commonly seen in old 1800's and similar era blockhouses etc, and the starwell styles are still in use)

Melee combat is a whole other story. SMG and pistol due to their very short size might be abit more useful, where as assault rifles and sniper rifles are rather useless except perhaps as a club at that kinda range for the most part. So personally I'd be all for a large penalty at that kinda range.

Also keep in mind for sniping in SR4 or even SR3 you have smartlinks. Which have a handy dany automatically target lead on them and lots of fun things that cause you to get the bonuses in question.

Overall I would agree ranged combat in SR4 is alot easier than IRL, and certainly some range penalties would likely be overcome with a scope, though that really would depend on the quality of said scope. So perhaps you could reintroduce quality levels to magnification like SR3 has. Also dont forget to use penalties that make sense.

For example. If the attacker is running they get X penalty. Personally I apply that ifeither one is moving. It's harder to hit a running target than one thats standing still. If both are moving I'd double it. If the shooter is under cover (Something that should be applied to any sniper really, assuming their not just sitting out in plain view of course) theres another penalty, then theres penalties for cover afforded the target. Keep the invoronment in mind here, ubran you've got people, cars, desks, chairs etc, wildneress you have trees, bushes, rabid paracritter banbi deer that eat humans alive. Then there's lighting conditions, weather conditions such as rain, glare from the sun (Compensated by flare comp i"m sure) smoke etc.

SR4 at least as far as sniping or hell any extreme range shooting is concerned I think also really needs a circumstance bonus/penalty. I mean IRL you can accurately snipe a target beyond the maxium range of a rifle by arcing your shot. It's ALOT harder, but it CAN be done. SR4 this isnt possible short of a house rule. Also at extreme range, sure you might be able to zoom in all the way and see the guys nosehair but at that kinda range a few milimeters of shift will actually count for alot more distance.

So you may want to consider houseruling some stuff with sniping, but before you do that I strongly suggest you do abit of research on actual sniping, whats involved with it, and what is generally possible for a skilled sniper (In this instance some one with say 5+ in longarms I'd say)

It's one reason I never really disagreeed with sniper rifles being their own skill under SR3, even though their much the same to firing other rifles. The simple fact was their purpose is alot more specialized. So are the realities of shooting using a scope etc. Something you dont generally run into with an assault rifle

[Ryu]

I don´t get the problem with sniper rifles, but anyway...

- the dice-pool modificator for not firing prone is nice, but should be a function of range rather than a result of using a sniper rifle. Bad handling could make the weapon loose accuracy, but that should reduce the range categories and not incur a dicepool modifier. It will still be as good as an assault rifle of the same makeup.

- shadowrun is not an accounting game. Your characters should earn enough money to pay for much more than ammo, so increasing the cost of ammo will not stop them from using a sniper rifle. And availability does not have much effect on items that are regulary used and rather cheap (short test intervall and timely order).

[Kesslan]

To be honest I dont see the problem with sniper rifles either. My SR3 sniper used his on runs quite often, it got abused abit more than I'd have liked and I had to make some really hard shots. But still managed to pull it off usually. Sometimes with a good heap of KP usage.

And I mean personally if I saw some guy going down mainstreet with a sniepr rifle across his back or some obvious rifle case and I was a cop I'd sure as hell pull him over lisence or no lisence and see what he hell he thought he was doing with it.

I mean IRL now I can legally own a lisenced rifle or handgun. That doesnt mean I can just walk down some major street with it sticking out of my back pocket so to speak and not get asked some very hard questions.

Also keep inmind who the lisence is for. Corps rule the world of shadowrun. Just because you have a lisence with lonestar to carry a concealed handgun, doesnt mean Ares security is goign to let you waltz around in one of their malls with it. Because it's their turf and UCAS laws dont apply there.

[toturi]

[Fortune]

There are official 'laws' passed by the Corporate Court that specifically delineate what does and does not count as extraterritoial property. If I recall correctly, the compound must be self-contained (if not actually walled/fenced), and clearly marked as being extraterritorial, and exactly which Corp owns it. I also believe that there might be a minimum size for the compound, but I'm not sure about that.

I am sure that the local Stuffer Shack (pick any one outside of Aztlan) definitaly does not qualify as an extraterritorial holding of Aztechnology in any way whatsoever.

[ElFenrir]

I think some Sniper Rifle problems come from ''GMBMPTSS'' (Gm Barret Model Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome). When the Sniper rifles that were in the books or SS Catalogue were out back in the day, no problems. This beast comes out and becomes the bane of GMs across the globe, and well, at SA, 14D damage...

And i know GMs that are cringing for the day it comes back, while the players lie in wait.

Well, I had one character that had it...a licenced critter hunter. I have to say, there are times where i was so amazingly glad for it.

I dont have a problem with sniper rifles...but yeah, i dont picture them as guns that you run around combat with. I mean, they tend to be about as long as an average human, not the lightest things in the world, hard to conceal(except the Ranger Arms which is very sensitive), and tend to be looked down upon by law enforcement unless the person is licenced military.

I find just using those rules limits them. Ive had two characters total with Sniper rifles(my old critter hunter, and a weapons specialist, who just had the Walther, and in his background, has probably used it a total of three times.)

They are most definately speciality weapons, for those certain times. I never needed a houserule for them, i just used common sense in case by case scenarios(aka, the party sammie takes one with him to every combat.)

When you think about it, like many folks are saying, a fully equipped AR is much more effective. Shock pad, gas vent 3, underbarrel grenade launcher, smartlink...and you can do it cheaper, nearly half price,than the price of any sniper rifle! being only restricted, its a muuch more powerful response. Load with ammo of choice(hello, ExEx), and its insane.

With the description above, id be happy your players are using sniper rifles instead. :D

[hyzmarca]

Of course the Stuffer Shack is extraterritorial. Because if it wasn't then I wouldn't be able to have an grizziled cashier say "You're in Stuffer Shack now, boy; shoplifting is a hangin' crime."